The Language of Queer Advocacy in Academia with Damon Young

Teaching While Queer, Season 2, Episode 33
Sitting down with Damon Young (he/him) at the University of Strathclyde, we enter the world of a queer educator where the intersection of personal identity and professional life creates a tapestry of rich experiences. Together, we navigate the shifting sands of language, discussing the reclamation of terms that once stung but now empower. As Damon shares his life as a gay cisgender male embracing the label 'queer,' I find common ground in the word's comfort and its generational journey from slur to badge of pride. This conversation is a testament to the evolution of language and our place within its narrative.

Our dialogue takes a poignant turn as we reminisce about the challenges and victories of growing up queer, from the oppressive days shadowed by Section 28 to the unexpected sanctuaries like school bands where acceptance bloomed. We chronicle the remarkable transformation from the '90s, a time of overt discrimination, to today's landscape of increased LGBTQ+ rights and visibility. The tales of our past—of bullying, finding community in music, and the ongoing pursuit of self-identity—are interwoven with the acknowledgment that knowing and celebrating our history is a form of empowerment, and educates us on the collective journey toward acceptance.

The episode culminates in an exploration of advocacy and policy within academia, a realm where equality, diversity, and inclusion are still being actively forged. Damon and I dissect the nuances of LGBTQ+ policies across UK universities, the struggle for consistent interpretation, and the need for policies that go beyond legal compliance. We reflect on the importance of allies, the creation of supportive networks, and the aspirations to shape educational institutions into bastions of inclusivity. Listen in for an honest look at the quest for an equitable society and the resilience of the queer educational community.

Transcript

Bryan (he/they): 0:27

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2SLGBTQIA+ educational professionals to share their experiences in academia. Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogue and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2SLGBTQIA+ educators. I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I am your host, Bryan Stanton. My pronouns are he/ they. And today I'm so excited because we are taking a trip to Glasgow. We are meeting with Damon Young. How's it going? Pronouns are he, they, and today I'm so excited because we are taking a trip to Glasgow. We are meeting with, uh, Damon Young. How's it going?

Damon (he/him): 1:13

hi, great, yeah, and thank you for having me, brian. Really nice to be here. I'm so happy I live in Glasgow, but I'm from Manchester in England. I currently work in a university in Glasgow called University of Strathclyde. I've been teaching there now since 2019, so just before the pandemic. Prior to that, I was abroad, working in Italy and Taiwan, where I first started my teaching career, kind of with children and teenagers, before moving into higher education. So yeah, Awesome.

Bryan (he/they): 2:00

And how do you identify within the LGBTQ community?

Damon (he/him): 2:06

So I am a cisgender male gay man, but I would also identify as being part of a queer community. So you know, I recognize traits within myself that don't fit the social construct of you know what a gay man should look like. You know what anybody kind of it's not binary essentially. So yeah, I would identify as a gay man but also as a queer person within the community.

Bryan (he/they): 2:38

Yep, absolutely. That's kind of how my journey has been as well.

Damon (he/him): 2:42

I currently identify as queer because I feel like it's most comfortable and, I guess, ambiguous enough um to not have been a mold, you know exactly, yeah, and I think that you know, through the research that I've been doing, I've kind of been learning about myself as well as I've been going reading, you know, a lot of academic research, a lot of kind of personal um anecdotes from people that have been published online. So, yeah, it's kind of a lot of kind of personal anecdotes from people that have been published online. So, yeah, it's kind of a lot of them have kind of resonated with me and gone. Oh, yeah, I kind of see myself there and that's the realization of going. Yeah, I'm a queer person and I'm happy to say that, proud to say it, and yeah, we'll say that to anybody who ever asks. In the past I probably wouldn't have said that, but yeah, yeah, it's funny, it's definitely.

Bryan (he/they): 3:28

The word has had an evolution, um, and I think that it's now reaching a pinnacle of acceptance um, with and without the community right.

Damon (he/him): 3:39

Yeah, I think one of the things that kind of sticks out for me is I don't know about yourself as well, being in in the states, but in the UK the term queer was definitely kind of a derogatory term that was used by, you know, cisgendered heterosexual people, um, as an insult to gay, lesbian, trans people, um. But now I think, as you mentioned, we've kind of turned that corner where taking ownership of the word again um is is really great, and actually had a had a conversation with quite a few people in their, you know, 60s and 70s who would say, oh, so we can say that now, and is it okay for us to say that? And blah, blah. And I said, well, if I tell you I'm queer and you're talking to somebody else, then yeah, you can just say that, of course, if it's used in the right way, you know. So I think it's about people from that generation also relearning that you know, lgbtqia plus or queer community have taken ownership again, which is great.

Bryan (he/they): 4:39

Yes, absolutely, and that evolution I think is so empowering. And also I can see how it would be difficult for folks who maybe only heard it as a derogatory term.

Damon (he/him): 4:51

Yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 4:52

So it's, it's interesting. It's kind of like I don't know. There's a lot of people within the gay community who kind of reclaimed the word faggots and I'm not one yet to get myself there, but like I feel that they you know all the power to you for feeling confident in reclaiming that word. But I don't know, having been on the other end of it a couple of times in my life.

Damon (he/him): 5:18

I'm like I don't know.

Bryan (he/they): 5:19

I don't know if I can say it Absolutely.

Damon (he/him): 5:21

Yeah, brian, I'm totally there with you, and I think I had a conversation recently over the holiday season and you know the famous Pogue song, a Fair Tale of New York, and the word f thought, oh, I've really not thought about it too much and whether it does affect me or whether it does affect me, and actually I realized, yeah, it still does kind of affect me because, like you, being on the receiving end of that word used in you know a way to cause harm and to discriminate, et cetera, it is still quite triggering, I think. So I'm like you, brian, I'm not quite there yet, but maybe one day I'll get there.

Bryan (he/they): 6:11

You know it's funny, because I had never heard that song until this year, and it's one of the most popular really songs? Yes, but I think it is. It definitely has a bigger following in the uk than it does in the us, but I saw oh yeah, I saw a news article about it and about the word and how even the artists were like you know I. I think that we should remove the word and and in my brain I'm going well, you're the artist, just go record it you know like go ahead yeah yeah exactly.

Damon (he/him): 6:40

They actually changed the lyrics. So, um, I think now in the uk you don't really hear that version unless you go on spotify or whatever or any other platform, and then you hear it there, but you don't hear it online. You know mtv or on the radio or anything. I think they realize that it would cause more offense than not, so and if the artist is saying it like you say, then I think it's you know, we should take a lead from the artist I guess, if they recognize that it can cause offense, then you know what's the harm in changing the world absolutely ah, what a fun little trail that we just went down um.

Bryan (he/they): 7:14

But I know let's talk a little bit more about you um.

Damon (he/him): 7:20

So what was?

Bryan (he/they): 7:21

life for you, like as a queer student, like as a youth life for you, like as a queer student, like as a youth?

Damon (he/him): 7:33

so yeah, I mean growing up in manchester, um manchester in the kind of mid to late 90s, there's canal street which is famous kind of globally I guess, for being um a safe space for the queer community, lgbtq plus people. You know there are bars for all kind of people within the queer community. So I knew that growing up because I remember that my auntie and my cousin who's the same age as me she my auntie took me to my first Pride event in Manchester and I remember being about 10, 11 years old going my gosh.

Damon (he/him): 8:06

This is amazing. And looking at all the colours and going, I think I had realised maybe a couple years before that I was gay and having seen kind of what my life would you know maybe look like in the future maybe not dancing on a float or whatever, but kind of the message that it is empowering kind of meant a lot to me. So I really that's a memory that always sticks in my mind Because in high school I think, although I had a really good kind of high school journey generally, I think I should also recognise that certain people did target me for homophobic abuse, so the word faggot was used, and also being called George Michael as an insult, and I thought, ok, you think that's an insult, I don't, but OK. So yeah, it's these kind of memories that stick in your mind and what is nice that's kind of come out of that is a couple of people from high school have reached out to me since via Facebook and apologize for the behavior, because I think they realized that you know they were just being sheep and I guess you know the society that we were living in kind of late nineties, early north, there was still a hangover effect of.

Damon (he/him): 9:27

In the uk. We had something called section 28, which was about, um, in kind of the thatcher years. Um, no lgbtq plus material in schools. You can't have any books, you can't listen, don't talk about it, no, you know. So I think that was a kind of hangover and I was on the tail end of that going to school. So it was quite a pleasant experience in high school and, I think, being part of this rock band. We weren't really a rock band, we were more like a cover band, so we covered songs, you know, from Tina Turner right through to Phil Collins. That kind of saved me so in I think I was about 12 years old. So in high school you start 11 in the UK.

Damon (he/him): 10:08

So at 12 years old I joined the band as a singer, had to audition um, I can't sing now, so please don't ask me to sing because I've lost my voice completely. Um, but yeah, at the time it was a really good experience and I remained in the band throughout my high school years and I don't know, I felt like everybody was different, um, and I was like, wow, everyone's really different in the band throughout my high school years and I don't know, I felt like everybody was different and I was like, wow, everyone's really different in this band and there were, you know, two keyboardists, a bass guitarist, guitarist, drummer. At one point there were five singers and I remember thinking, oh wow, they're totally different to the other people in my class and I started to recognize the differences in people, whether they were gay or queer. And you know, now I now know that some of those people that were in the band were actually gay as well. Um, so we toured Europe and it felt like a really super safe bubble to be part of, because I'm pretty sure my music teacher, um, recognized that I was gay as well. Um, just just how kind of tentative he was, you know, I think he could see that I was quite soft, quite reserved, quite shy, but on stage listen, I thought I was like britney spears or something, but, um, yeah, so that was a really safe space to be part of. Um.

Damon (he/him): 11:20

So one of the other kind of memories that pops up, I guess, is in physical education and I guess this is the same for most queer youths or LGBTQ youths kind of going into the shower room. Now, in the UK in the 90s most schools had communal showers still, so you would have to go and it'd be one kind of long shower, basically, and people would say to me you know, oh, don't look at my penis, you know, and I'd be like I'm not, don't flatter yourself. You know, and I think they were really trying to, you know, make me feel insignificant. You know, and at times it really did, and you know we would. I would actually make up excuses for not having my sports kit to play, um, uh, soccer, because I just didn't want to get changed, because I just thought they're going to bully me again. They're going to say that to me. They know that I'm gay, you can see that, um, and then I got made to be referee, so I didn't know the rules for soccer, so I would just blow the whistle randomly and, yeah, people would shout at me and anyway. So that was an absolute nightmare.

Damon (he/him): 12:34

It was like hell on earth, I think, and those kinds of traumatic experiences I think they stay with you, you know. And now when I go to the gym, even in Glasgow, there's still that kind of oh, you know that, still that kind of oh, you know that, that kind of tension of, oh, you know, please don't say anything to me, even though nobody is going to say anything. You know um, absolutely, but it still kind of niggles there in your mind um. So yeah it, it's. It's been an interesting but mostly pleasant experience. I know that's not the same for most queer use, but I know that um, a lot of young people um kind of from my generation, late 90s, early noughties, experienced pretty much the same as me. Having spoken to friends, my age and things, and yeah, it's, it's traumatic, I will say that I've been into a lot of schools when I was doing teacher training and all these different things and volunteering and it's just incredible to see. You know um an equality diversity inclusion board and it's got information about pride and it's got the. You know the, the progress flag, it's got the trans flag and it's got. You know all of these.

Damon (he/him): 13:46

You know marcia P Johnson on there as as uh in in history month that they were happening and I just thought, oh my gosh, this is amazing. I really wish I'd had this in school growing up, because you know, when you leave school and you start to learn about yourself and you go to university or whatever you go to work, we don't know about our history. You know the civil rights not civil rights the pride movement in New York. You know the Stonewall movement that we then learn about and go, wow, what bravery you know, and I think had that been part of our history lessons and you know, it just would have been so empowering to be like you know what. I can stand up and I can stick up for myself, because these people did, they were fearless and I kind of wish I had that, but you know now I do, which is is great.

Bryan (he/they): 14:34

So yeah, absolutely. And there's something about it like where I think that as a community we have not only like ancestral connections to like our own blood, but ancestral connections to our community. And so for me, I grew up around like we're about the same age and I grew up kind of disconnected from the queer community. And now I'm like, oh, look at all these trailblazers who came before me and I see how I'm connected to them and what that means for me as a person on what I want to blaze trails for going into the future. Oh, 100 percent.

Damon (he/him): 15:14

And, like you said, you kind of they're like idols, you know, and I think it's, it's, and I was in, I was talking to my therapist a couple of months ago about this, and I was talking to my therapist a couple of months ago about this, and there's a kind of shared experience through reading about the sufferings that a lot of the queer and LGBTQ plus community went through.

Damon (he/him): 15:34

And, like you say, you know it's when you learn about these things I don't know about you, but it can be quite triggering as well, because you think, my gosh, we, we, you know we're living in a world I mean, the world isn't perfect still and we've got a lot, um to do to get to a place where it is equitable and equality is, you know, existing completely. But it was a lot worse back then. You know, um, and I think just, you know this word bravery just keeps coming to my mind because it really was brave. You know the amount of not only physical but mental trauma that a lot of people went through to stand up and say I exist, I'm here, I'm not going anywhere. So, you know, deal with it. You know, and I just think it's, yeah, it's just it's incredible that these people stood up and we are, you know benefits of those people standing up, those 50 years ago, 60 years ago.

Bryan (he/they): 16:35

Yeah, absolutely watch a documentary, or I will read something and just like it's almost completely triggered trauma for me because of the the treatment of queer people before my time um yeah, just like thinking about how that connects to me and that and part of that is that I'm a very empathic person. I like I feel lots of things, um but um it. It's been interesting, kind of like as I learn and grow, the things that I didn't realize that maybe I was holding onto um and that they don't get unleashed until it's connected to some sort of like historical lesson about queer people from the past yeah, absolutely yeah.

Damon (he/him): 17:29

I completely agree with you, brian um, and it is all about I think it's important that we, you know, we just never forget this the kind of experiences that people in our shared, in our shared history went through for us to be able to, you know, live the lives that we live in today. Yeah, it's just so important not to forget.

Bryan (he/they): 17:54

Absolutely, which is why pride is even more important, you know.

Bryan (he/they): 17:58

It's funny because a lot of people are kind of of the mentality well, a lot of people I've encountered at least are on the mentality of like Pride is just a party, now, it doesn't really mean anything, and so it was almost a blessing that, like the anniversary of Stonewall, the 50 years happened in 2019 to kind of remind people what it was for. And then, unfortunately, around the world, we've seen this kind of pushback on the queer community, and so now it's even more important because we're again standing up and saying you know, we're here and we're not going away and you're going to have to learn to live with that fact to live with that fact.

Damon (he/him): 18:49

Yeah, it's interesting because the first thing that makes me think of that is I kind of well, me and my partner both got a job in Glasgow after having decided to move back from Italy back to the UK, and we both managed to get jobs in Glasgow, which was great, and I'm really glad that we did Not to say that I wouldn't want to live in Manchester or England because Manchester is a very liberal city. It's, you know, very left-leaning, it's very forward-thinking. You know, the suffragette movement started in Manchester, so it's always had that kind of mentality of hang on, this is oppression, we will stand for it. So I'm not saying that I wouldn't want to live in England, but Scotland and the Scottish government seem to have a different direction to the English government, which is also the UK government. So Scotland tried to pass laws for the Gender Recognition Act to make it easier for trans people to self-identify, but the English or UK government blocked it in the Supreme Court.

Damon (he/him): 19:55

So it's this kind of, you know, push and pull from, even with internal within the UK. That just seems really unfair and I know that's a totally different subject to do with independence in Scotland. However, it, yeah, it just makes me think that the injustices that exist because of governments and because of laws and just general oppression and, like you say, kind of going backwards, a lot of governments. I know that in Europe the right and even the far right has risen in a lot of countries and a lot of um far right parties have been winning recently, which is again quite worrying because generally the far right, as we know, are um, yeah they. They don't like us, do they?

Bryan (he/they): 20:45

so yeah it's interesting because, um prior to moving to new york city, I lived. I lived in Texas for five years. Texas is very conservative, very far right, and my description of it is that Texas is anti-people, and that is kind of that is how I feel about the far right movement. Is that, while they have this, this, uh, the near of like we're doing this for family values and all this stuff, but they don't actually care about their constituents. They don't care about any people, but the people in power. Um yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 21:26

And so my, my concern is and this is where I see kind of a lack of humanity across the board, like around the world. We're seeing this lack of humanity and it's coming from these pushback of the far right community, because I very much believe that they are not for people period, they are for control and power. And that's a generalization and I am not a political scientist, so you know disclaimer, but these are my observations that, as an educated person who has experienced living in, you know, liberal spaces and living in very conservative spaces, this is what I see there.

Bryan (he/they): 22:18

That businesses have more power than people in the conservative spaces, the government has more power than people in the conservative spaces, while also at the same time, saying the government needs to get out of my house, but then the government wants to be in my house. It out of my house, but then the government wants to be in my house. So it's a contradictory thing where it just really feels like we are losing our humanity due to this kind of politicizing of things.

Damon (he/him): 22:50

Yeah, I couldn't agree more with you on every point yeah, it's, it's a wild time.

Bryan (he/they): 22:56

I I, when I email guests for those of you who are listening, you, you know, may not realize like the back end stuff that happens, but when I email guests about things, I I always include a line that's like we are living in turbulent times, so if you need supports on x, y and z, you know, reach out to me and like that's really what it feels like. It feels like at any moment you know you're flying your lot, you're playing, which is your life, and at any moment it's going to drop 10 feet because something, something wild has happened um, yeah, it does feel like that.

Damon (he/him): 23:28

Yeah, I think it's, um, it's, it's yeah. To be living in that space constantly as well is also quite challenging. It's exhausting, right?

Bryan (he/they): 23:39

um, I mean you, you, you, totally yeah so how do you think your experience I I would agree with you in the sense that, like late 90s, early aughts, like it was easier, I feel like I didn't have a hard time either in my high school years. I had, you know, a couple bullies, a couple of instances like you're talking about, and you know the gym um, and I still have, I still have issues at the gym because of that. So I'm with you there, um, but how do you think your experience has kind of influenced your work and education?

Damon (he/him): 24:17

How has it influenced my work? Well, massively actually, because I mean, to be honest, I was a little bit when me and my partner first decided to go to Taiwan. Bit when me and my partner first decided to go to Taiwan. That's kind of on a whim we both just graduated, um, from our undergraduate degrees and we thought let's go to sports somewhere else. So we did that and then we thought, oh, we could turn this into a career, so it was teaching English in Taiwan, um, and then we got a qualification and we moved to Sicily where we stayed for three years.

Damon (he/him): 24:50

Um, and I'd never, in in taiwan, didn't receive any kind of homophobic abuse or anything like that. Now, in sicily that we did get into an incident whereby, um, these uh sicilian guys, we was switching between italian and english speaking with some friends and these guys overheard us and called my partner a faggot. So then it ended up being a fight. Police were called ambulance, they broke my nose, they broke my partner's nose and I was just like I can't deal with this anymore. I can't take it, and that was in 2018. Yeah, 2018. Early 2018.

Damon (he/him): 25:40

So we decided maybe that was part of the reason why we decided to come back to the UK as well. Sicily was generally very open, but, you know, it was also a place where, um, I wouldn't feel comfortable walking down the street holding hands with my partner, just because you would be targeted. That's that was how I felt, um, and so when we moved to glasgow, I got the opportunity, um, whilst we're teaching, um, I teach now academic english to international students, um, at the university I work at, and I got the opportunity to start my doctorate. So I thought, okay, what do I want to look at here? What, what kind of what do I keep coming back to? And I had a conversation with a few people at the university and it kept coming back to EDI, edi, edi. And I thought, ok, yeah, this is something that I could see myself doing long term. I could see myself working with an EDI in some capacity. I could see myself, you know, looking at the law, looking at these policies. Are they working? Why are they not working? Et cetera, et cetera. So I did that as part of my research, working, etc. Etc. So I did that as part of my research. Um, I went to, uh, some universities around scotland and I interviewed the um equality leaders of the universities and asked them okay, from your perspective, what's working, what are the barriers, etc. And, yeah, the results I'm not, I'm just about to finish, so, um, I can't talk about the results yet, but I'm just about to finish my doctorate. In the next kind of five months, I hope, fingers crossed.

Damon (he/him): 27:17

And yeah, I would say that my life experiences of going into to kind of into education are pushing me now more towards EDI. That's not to say that I don't love teaching, but maybe I'd love to teach on some kind of equalities or equity course. But I definitely see myself going into, maybe, education establishments like elementary schools, high schools and saying, okay, this is what your policy looks like, this is what the law says. How are you going beyond that to make sure that your you know your um lgbtqi plus students are safe and they do feel like they can come to you, etc. Um, unfortunately, a law um has just come into place in england um whereby if a student um so an under 16 year old tells a member of staff their preferred pronouns, they have to inform their parents now, which I just think is devastating because, you know, I remember having teachers in school where I felt comfortable going to talk to them and I always felt safe. Talk to them and um it, I never, I always felt safe. Now that this is in place, the teacher may think, gosh, if, if that gets out, I could get into trouble, I could lose my job, etc. So it puts them in a really precarious position and I think it's yeah, it's really unfair. So the reason I'm going to you know, edi, and and that's what kind of led me into um higher education EDI specifically is that you know, we just spoke about the world changing or feels like there's a pushback about equality in many different areas of the world, and that's one of the things that kind of is pushing me towards it.

Damon (he/him): 29:07

Um, I also had um about two months ago. I was on some public transport and this guy was using his phone and sending voice notes to somebody and screaming down the phone again, this word, you faggot, this faggot that da, da, da, da. And so I approached him and I said listen, could you not use that word? And he completely flipped on me. This is a free country, I can say what I want. Who are you to tell me Sit the fuck down?

Damon (he/him): 29:39

And I thought what the hell? Everyone around me kind of just stood there, didn't say anything. And I was like, right, I could call the police. But you know what I just felt the police aren't going to do anything, yeah. So anyway, long and short of it is, I went into education because of those experiences and because I think I want to be able to help people, and that's, first and foremost where my head's always at how can I help them, what can I do to facilitate that, and how can I make the world a bit more of an equitable place, make the world a bit more of an equitable place to be for people like us and for people trans, youth, non-binary you know how can we make it even better for them? And that's, yeah, that's where my head is.

Bryan (he/they): 30:24

That is also fascinating because I was quite literally in a conversation with a friend from high school yesterday about EDI In the US the acronym has changed around to DEI and we were talking about like policy versus law and the fact that you're talking about going into institutions and being like okay, well, this is what the law says, but couldn't your policy be better? And that is where I'm going yes, yes, it could. And we should all be able to blatantly say to lawmakers like yeah, here's the letter of the law, but we're doing this, we're in line with the law, but we're actually a step ahead, because I think that lawmakers need to hear it.

Damon (he/him): 31:17

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Damon (he/him): 31:19

And one of the things that I did was I, as part of my research, I looked at the policies the EDI, but more specifically, the LGBTQI plus and trans individual policies and non-binary policies that the university is as part of my research in Scotland and I analysed them and I kind of looked at the law to see, okay, are they doing just the bare minimum, to kind of go, okay, tick box, performative exercise, um, or are they going beyond that and um. Now the equality act in the UK came in 2010, and I think there was an amendment in 2012 in Scotland and that protects seven characteristics. Now, when I looked at the Equality Act and I looked at kind of pre-Equality Act actually, and I looked at what policies existed pre-Equality Act, only one of the universities I looked at and I looked at four universities, four big universities in Scotland only one of them had an LGBTQ plus policy that was talking about protections and you know what's available, et cetera, and how people should be treated. The others just had kind of general equality policies, but then when the law came in, they changed it and you know, I have to say that they've gotten better, but some of them are still so vague that, you know, the law itself is very vague and can be, you know, misinterpreted by different universities and I think, well, that university is doing this, but that university is doing that, okay, have they looked at the local culture and the needs of university and that's why they've adapted the policy, or have they not looked at it?

Damon (he/him): 32:59

Um, so, yeah, it's been a real kind of journey of, you know, moments that go in, but how can you interpret, you know this as that and how's that university interpreted it in this way? And I'm not saying there needs to be a standardized way of understanding the the um, the law, because I do think that, you know, different universities have different cultures and I think it needs to be looked at. For example, if there are more trans individuals going to one university, then the policy needs to reflect that and I think it should be updated regularly to reflect the local population of the university, but that's not happening. So that's where, for me, in lies the problem. And I think you know equality impact assessments, or EIAs, are what a lot of universities are now adopting and employing, to kind of put that as part of every part of the university experience.

Damon (he/him): 33:58

So, and it should be adopted in every part, so part of the curriculum, how can we look back at you know what, what's been taught over the past 10 years in you know a chemistry department, and how can we make sure that that is inclusive and representative in what we say, how we say it, etc. So, yeah, that's just one example, but yeah, it's. It's. There's a lot to do. Even though it is better, there's still a lot to do.

Bryan (he/they): 34:25

Absolutely, and I think one of the biggest things that any government can do at the moment is that I think that queer people and all of our categories need to be included in data. Um, because, for instance, the 2020 census in the United States was set up by president Obama to include, you know, uh, the lesbian gays for everybody, um, uh, transgender folks and whatnot, and then was changed, uh, by Trump to only allow for those people who are married to say that they're in a same sex relationship. So if you are married and your partner was same-sex, it like really held to the binary and it only counted those people who were married, and so that, I think, is incredibly frustrating, because, as much as I don't want to be a number on a page, I think that we need to have our data available, because people think that we are a very small portion of the world, and I'm kind of inclined to believe that we are much bigger than people think.

Damon (he/him): 35:41

We just don't have the capacity.

Bryan (he/they): 35:43

We don't have the capacity to get realistic numbers.

Damon (he/him): 35:48

That's it, and, and this is something sorry, go on, Brian Ohrian.

Bryan (he/they): 35:54

Oh uh, there's. There was a tiktok I watched recently, uh, of a woman who found some data somewhere about the us population of queer people and was like if we put them, all the queer people, in one state, we would be the fifth largest state in the united states and I think that's incredibly powerful. Wow, and that's the kind of data, that one I want to be able to cross reference, right, because I'm not going to rely on tiktok to tell me something, yeah, yeah um and two yeah, yeah and two.

Bryan (he/they): 36:28

It's like if we had that data available, it is a lot easier for us to combat some of the problems that we're facing, because if people think that we're one in a million versus like one in three, then we are going to continue to face adversity, and the biggest message that I've seen is you are alone in this experience, in this idea that that cisgender, heterosexual community wants to make queer people feel like they're the only ones.

Damon (he/him): 37:02

Yeah, and I think it's speaking about censuses the census in the UK, the census I think it was the 2021 English England and Wales census, sorry, where it was the first time that they had included gay, lesbian, trans, etc. On the census. So now there is data that shows, you know where there are high numbers of trans people living or high numbers of gay men living, etc. But in terms of universities, I think an education establishment, I don't think that data is recorded in a way that is representative. So where, for example, at one of the universities I interviewed, they had 1.2 FTE, so over three people working in the equality department, because the university thought, oh well, that's fine, that'll suffice, that's kind of what our data shows, etc. But then they a lot of people don't fill out that that data, it's not mandatory, um, a lot of people may not be out, so don't consider that, you know. So then all the funds that should be available don't go um to the areas that are needed.

Damon (he/him): 38:29

And also, now that academic capitalism um has taken a hold in the uk, um, it doesn't bring in universities money. So a lot of universities may argue, oh well, it doesn't reflect the needs of a local um market, late labor market. So I guess they're kind of thinking how can we, you know, stay above the rest? And having all these league tables and fighting for funding and the things really kind of pushes EDI stuff to the side quite a lot. And yeah, it's clear to see, I would say, that a lot of universities, also in the UK anyway, do put a lot of money into EDI and queer and LGBTQI plus areas because they want and they recognise that the community is larger, as you mentioned, than is kind of thought.

Damon (he/him): 39:27

So then they think, okay, well, we can get the what they call the so-called pink pound right and we can get their money future and we can get them to come here. Um, so yeah, it's. I mean, just the research I've been doing recently about academic capitalism kind of has me a bit skeptical about universities that do that, because some of them, as we mentioned, are just kind of performative tick box exercises that, um, perhaps aren't as true as they seem.

Bryan (he/they): 39:59

So yeah, yeah, I, I've never heard that term, pink pound but I kind of like I understand it and I kind of love it a little bit. But I agree with you that I've had experiences throughout my life in different settings where it's like I'm checking this box so I can get a check. And yeah, that happens a lot in academia. Like I work a lot on inclusivity for folks with disabilities through the work that I do in my studies and I found that there is a high percentage of people who get put into disability services for the sake of the fact that states will give you extra money per student.

Bryan (he/they): 40:47

But the services that the students are receiving are not equitable to the amount of money that the schools are given. You know, yeah yeah. So it's I want to check this box so that I can get the money, but I don't want to use that money for checking the box.

Damon (he/him): 41:06

Yeah, wow, it's just a conundrum, isn't it? Yeah?

Bryan (he/they): 41:12

it really is. It's going to take some real systemic changes and, ideally, getting the capitalism out of education, that is going to make some changes.

Damon (he/him): 41:26

Yeah, that's going to be a whole lifetime of.

Bryan (he/they): 41:32

It's like earth shshattering almost.

Damon (he/him): 41:34

Yeah, I know, I know, I know, it's just my mind.

Bryan (he/they): 41:40

Thinking about the turbulent times we're living in. What advice would you give to a new teacher who's going into the classroom and they're not sure whether or not they should be their authentic self?

Damon (he/him): 41:55

Um, Okay, yeah, it is a tricky question because I think you know you want to say well, we always live in hope and we always want people to, you know, be their true selves, be their authentic selves going into the classroom, because why shouldn't you? And I think it's important that people do that. Of course, I also think it's important that people recognise the kind of support and help that is available to them. So, you know, for people that perhaps are not comfortable coming out or recognizing that actually they're trans, a trans individual or non-binary or whatever it is, as you mentioned earlier, there are people out there like you. So I think that's kind of one of the things. Brian, can you repeat the question for me? Sorry, I feel like I've gone completely off.

Bryan (he/they): 43:01

Absolutely so. If you've got a new queer teacher, they're heading into the classroom for the first time and they are unsure about being authentic in the classroom and like maybe being out or being themselves fully. What advice would you give them?

Damon (he/him): 43:17

okay, yeah, um. Well, it makes me think about again. In Taiwan and Italy, initially, me and my partner, because we both were teachers there, so it was very difficult to, even if we wanted to, hide the fact that we were together. So from the very beginning, when we arrived and we were greeted by the school manager and they had accommodation for us and things in a hotel, whilst we got apartments set up and things, um, she said, okay, damon, here's your key. Okay, richard, here's your key. And we both kind of got into the lift, went to our rooms and went hang on.

Bryan (he/they): 43:56

What are we doing?

Damon (he/him): 43:57

you know, we've been together for just over three years. At that point and thought, why have we just done that? We just kind of followed that. But we, we had told them prior to going there that we're together. So I thought, no, this is wrong. And and you know, homosexuality in taiwan and being gay lesbian is is recognized, is recognized in Taiwan and actually supported. And I think a couple of years ago maybe it was last year, I can't remember that same-sex marriage was legalized in Taiwan, which is great. So, yeah, I went back downstairs and said, actually we're together and she went oh yeah, okay, of course, Sorry.

Damon (he/him): 44:38

Yeah, okay, we've been doing one. It was kind of like at that moment I was like, okay, of course, sorry, yeah, okay, we'll bring you one. It was kind of like at that moment I was like, okay, because it was a culture that we were both unfamiliar with. So at that moment it was kind of, oh right, and then when we were working together in classrooms or opposite you know, all the teaching assistants and stuff and the other teachers knew we were together, the parents knew, pretty sure, the teenagers and the kids knew in the school. So that was the kind of first experience for me of being out in a school in a different culture. I'd never done it in the UK because I was only volunteering and doing kind of placements as part of my undergraduate degree. So I guess, looking back, there was never really an opportunity to talk about it. It certainly didn't come up in any lessons that I was observing as part of teacher training and things, because I probably wouldn't have spoken about it then because I really didn't feel comfortable enough or confident enough to be my authentic self I guess. I guess I was young and wouldn't really know or didn't really know how to handle it. So that first experience in Taiwan for me was okay, this is okay, and that's how you do it, and that's how you assert yourself in those situations and you be yourself and that's it. I am here, that's who I am great. If you don't like it, I don't really care.

Damon (he/him): 45:55

Um, so then in Sicily, me and my partner, we were moving to Italy. He's Scottish-Italian, so we both were like let's move to Italy, and we both applied for all these schools all over Italy and we ended up both getting jobs, coincidentally at the same school in Catania, which again was like my gosh, if there is something out there, how has this even worked out that there are two jobs and it turns out the? Um, I mean everyone in school. Then I'm like my best friends, um, you know, um, I've been working there for three years, working with somebody from hawaii, somebody from york, from it's sicily, but from all over the place, you know, and very welcoming, not a problem. And some of the Sicilian friends that we made through some of our other Sicilian friends who had never really experienced being around gay people before, were curious and they asked questions and I was happy to answer them, you know, because I think if you've never experienced being around gay people, or you think, you know, be experienced being around gay people. Um, then, yeah, I'm happy to sit down, have these conversations and and it was fine, and we're still all really good friends and I'm happy that they did that.

Damon (he/him): 47:13

So, I think, going into education now as I did, I think, walking through doors, you have to make a decision because you're on display and there are going to be other queer kids in that classroom or lecture theatre or whatever, and you're going to be that someone's light. You know, to say, yeah, I am here. Visibility is important, so we're in the progress flag. You know, I have, um, the pride lanyard, the progress flag lanyard, and I wear every single day when I'm on campus. Um, and you know, a lot of my heterosexual colleagues wear it and stuff, which is great as well, because it shows allyship, and I think having that visibility to say, yeah, we're an accepting university, it's great, et cetera, I think is fundamental.

Damon (he/him): 48:08

So I would only say that if you feel confident or comfortable enough at the very beginning to do that, you know, take your time, there's no rush. We're all different people, we're all individual and I think it's about recognising when the time is right for you Because, you know, as we know, unfortunately children, teens or even adults can pick on or pick up on your kind of vulnerabilities Right and mess with you, and yeah, it could could work out to your disadvantage in that way. So make sure you're ready, make sure you're comfortable, make sure you're feeling confident with it, but remember that you being visible is also helping others in that room, even if you don't know it. In the future they'll think about you like I do and I'm sure you do too, brian. But yeah, that's kind of based on my experience and what I think now kind of merged together, I guess absolutely.

Bryan (he/they): 49:06

I think there's a part of your story that I really appreciate, which is that you don't have to necessarily make a huge deal out of your identity.

Damon (he/him): 49:13

You could just go about living your life and people will pick up on it um just be yourself, you know, and and it's yeah, no, I'm just gonna say it's also you probably recognize this as well, because there's a constant it's not a battle, but it is tiring constantly coming out to new people you meet constantly. You know, going to a hotel with your partner, oh, you know it's a double bed. Yeah, I do know it's a double bed because we're we're partners, we're together. You know it's situations like that on the phone and when I say, oh, my partner's not here at the moment, but I'll confirm with you later, oh, what time is she home?

Damon (he/him): 49:53

And I think, come on, you know, train your people better. You know, and that's what makes me think about working in edi, because I really want to. You know, even if it's going into private companies like hotel chains, whatever to say, this is how you should be. You know addressing people if they say my partner, you should refer back to partner as well, not, you know, you assuming pronouns, unless they tell you about the pronouns. Then okay, great, you know these things.

Bryan (he/they): 50:20

Sorry I'm going on a tangent there. No, absolutely I'm, I'm here for that. I I am tired of that as well, and I think that's something that you know. Uh, heterosexual people don't have to worry about, they don't have to worry about constantly coming out, um, and it's something that we have to deal with all the time, because I have the same situation like, unless I exclusively use the word husband and even then I'll use that word and people will still be like, okay, well, let me know when she and I'm like no, no, like what the heck? I said real good, right. So I appreciate that, because I think you're absolutely correct. It's exhausting because it's constant.

Bryan (he/they): 51:05

Yeah, so without diving too much because I think this last question is borderline close to your experience in your doctorate yeah, so without diving too much into your own research what do you think that the academic community can do to be more inclusive of 2SLGBTQIA plus?

Damon (he/him): 51:26

people.

Damon (he/him): 51:30

What can academic community do?

Damon (he/him): 51:36

I think this question for me kind of takes me to two places, and I think encouraging I mean education is a starting point of where people start to see different people recognise differences and listen to others and learn from one another.

Damon (he/him): 51:59

Kind of peer teaching each other within an education establishment for me is always really important, and I think in school and at home. I think, yeah, the academic community I guess could encourage parents if it's in high school and you have a kind of parents even or parents meeting and um even giving out information to the parents who may not have been educated about the use of pronouns, for instance, um or what non-binary people um may look like, for instance, and and I think having people educate parents, who would hopefully in turn then speak to their children as well, would be something that I think that encouraging students to stand up for themselves as well is also important and I would hope that you know, educators and academics and academic community would be in a position where they are constantly encouraging people to stand up. And yeah, I think that's probably the more accurate answer I could give you.

Bryan (he/they): 53:28

Absolutely. At this point in the episode, I turn it over to you to ask me a question, so take it away.

Damon (he/him): 53:37

Yeah, I mean. So this is season two, right? The start of season two? Yeah, why? What made you initially want to start this podcast and what do you hope will come out of running this podcast for the queer community within the teaching field?

Bryan (he/they): 54:03

Yeah, so when I was living in Texas, I had the privilege of being nominated and then selected as the Teacher of the Year for my district in a relatively conservative district and what's wild for me is thank you, uh.

Bryan (he/they): 54:21

What's wild for me is that you know, I teach theater, um, and so my experience is theatrical and whatnot, and what I was doing was focusing on inclusivity, and so, like, what a powerful message, right that. Right you uh get selected because of your work on inclusivity. Um, and that spanned several things. Like I was involved in projects on the campus that were about, like, creating bridges to other communities. The school had a reputation of being in a bubble, and so, like, I created with some students a weekly TV show called Beyond the Bubble, where they expand your horizons, kind of. And so I was doing all of this work and throughout my time at that school, from the very first month of working there, I had dealt with some like anti-queer behavior, um, yeah, and had seen like administrators come and go for various reasons, but every time we got a new administrator, it was like I was dealing with a new person who had some some sort of quote unquote microaggressions towards queer people.

Bryan (he/they): 55:47

And when I got Teacher of the Year, I basically had dealt with a bunch of experiences and then found out that there were like private meetings or not necessarily private meetings, but meetings of, like school board members and school board member candidates who were basically running on the we're gonna get the queer out of the school um campaign and I have children and so that my children went to those schools and, um, it was a lot and I was looking around for places to like connect with other people that had similar stories and in the news, like monthly at the time, you could find some story of a queer teacher of the year being fired or leaving a school district in the united states, um, but it was all in the news. There was like no connection. So after a year of thinking about it, I decided to start the podcast and I started it.

Damon (he/him): 56:51

Yeah.

Bryan (he/they): 56:52

In 2022. Did the first season. We're in the middle of season two right now, when this is being recorded, and this episode will actually air towards the end of it. And so, middle of season two right now, when this is being recorded and this episode will actually air towards the end of it. Um, and so I wanted to provide a space where people can share their experiences, because right now in the us, as well as other places around the world, queer teachers are experiencing this. You should not be queer in educational spaces.

Bryan (he/they): 57:26

We shouldn't have to know, you're queer, you shouldn't be allowed to talk about being queer, you shouldn't have your partner's picture up. You shouldn't, you know, live your life as a queer person, because children are just too young to know about queerness. But, like I knew, I was queer when I was four, so give me a break. Exactly, and so I wanted to create a space for people to be able to share their stories, and the evolution of that is that in January of 2024 2024, so just you know a week or two ago when this episode was recorded um yeah I launched an online community where people can connect through like discussion boards, and I've got like monthly challenges on there, like the first month is, you know, meet someone new and try to connect with someone new.

Bryan (he/they): 58:19

But the goal is to combat that feeling of you are alone in this experience.

Bryan (he/they): 58:25

Because you're not, and that's the thing that's so frustrating to me is how effective the messaging is that you are alone.

Bryan (he/they): 58:37

And while there are plenty of resources available for queer students and organizations focused on queer students, there are very few focused on queer educators and supporting those educators, and so my goal is to grow this podcast into a podcast that is a part of a nonprofit organization with the goal of supporting queer educators in whatever their needs are, with grant opportunities for you know, extra training on things or to bring a guest speaker to their school or whatever they need to do. But, um, my goal is to be there to create a community that supports queer educators, because we aren't alone and there is power in our connecting to each other, and the more that we do that, the more that we're able to raise our voice and push back on everything well, brian, I mean thank you for creating it because, honestly, I think, um, from from a personal perspective perspective, it's really cathartic kind of looking at these things and discussing it and realising the importance and realising we're not alone and, like you said, being able to connect with people.

Damon (he/him): 59:53

you know, now we've connected and I think that is. It's just a really wonderful thing to to be able to, as you said, have this space to talk about and and realise we've had some similar experiences and, okay, there's more of us. So, yeah, thank you for creating it, because I think what you're doing is absolutely needed and, like you said, the focus is on students. Great, that's wonderful. I'm glad there's a focus on students, but what about the educators? So, yeah, thank you for creating this space for queer educators as well yeah, absolutely.

Bryan (he/they): 1:00:26

It honestly is a pleasure, mostly because in creating this community, I gained from the community and I've, you know, had conversations with 40 different people from around the world and it's so far and it's it's been really nice, because then I'll think of something and share it with that person, because now I have this network of people to talk to about specific things, and so it's been just as rewarding as it has been work.

Bryan (he/they): 1:00:55

But, that being said, I want to thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. For those of you, a lot of people don't know behind the scenes stuff, this was literally just a me sending him a message on linkedin and being like hey, I I saw you post in this queer educators group. Do you want to be on this podcast? And like here we are, um and so I love.

Bryan (he/they): 1:01:19

That's part of my love for the internet. But I also grew up, you know, during the internet being constructed, so that's yes, yes, yes so thank you for joining me today, and then thank you all at home for listening. Have a great day thanks for you thank you for joining us on this episode of teaching while queer. Thanks Craig, wwwteachingwhilequeercom, and hit support the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.