62. How to Reclaim Your Authenticity in Conservative Settings as an LGBTQ Educator

Are you navigating the complexities of identity in today’s educational landscape? Join us as Jo Peacock (she/her), an educator and advocate, shares her journey as a queer woman in the IT and teaching sectors.

Jo Peacock discusses the evolution of LGBTQ+ visibility and support in educational settings, highlighting challenges faced by queer students and educators alike. Her insights shed light on creating inclusive environments crucial for personal and academic growth.

Through our conversation you will:

• Gain insights into navigating professional environments as a queer individual.
• Understand the importance of inclusive education and its impact on student well-being.
• Learn practical strategies for fostering supportive spaces for LGBTQ+ individuals in educational settings.

Dive into Jo Peacock’s compelling perspective on fostering inclusivity by listening to the full episode now. Discover actionable steps to create a more supportive environment for LGBTQ+ individuals in education.

Transcript

Bryan (He/they): [00:00:00] Hi Jo, how are you doing today? 

Jo (She/Her): Hi Bryan, I'm absolutely fine, thank you.

Bryan (He/they): I'm fantastic and I'm so excited to spend some time with you. Do you mind telling everybody at home who's listening a little bit about yourself 

Jo (She/Her): I am Jo Peacock. She, her are my pronouns. I am an out lesbian within the teaching community. I'm married to my wonderful wife, Kim. I have to call her. Wonderful, because otherwise I'll suffer afterwards, . But I actually, I work in the IT space. So I am an educator of it namely IT governance which is all about managing it and how we manage our technology.

I teach adult students mainly. I also teach at universities as an adjunct for those universities that I have my discipline in their curriculum, which it's becoming more and more popular. So I spend a lot of time. Either dealing with sort of members of the public doing keynote speaking and also teaching [00:01:00] online, teaching in classrooms.

So it's quite a varied a varied role that I have. 

Bryan (He/they): Yeah, that sounds like it's going to be on demand soon, especially with all of the IT work that's happening, not only in education, but just like unilaterally, every company has an IT department. And knowing the governance and the rules and all that stuff is going to become, I guess, more necessary, especially as it develops.

I'm just thinking about AI right now, so interesting field for sure. 

Jo (She/Her): IT has definitely, I mean, obviously I've been, I've been in the game for quite a while. I'm not, I'm not young anymore, but IT has, has moved from a nice to have to something that absolutely every organization, every single educational facility has to have.

You can't function without IT. You can't pay your bills without IT. 

Bryan (He/they): Nope. Absolutely not. Do you mind sharing where you are in the world? 

Jo (She/Her): Sure. Well, obviously with this accent, you might think that I was in London and I'm not, I used to be, I now live in Niagara Falls [00:02:00] on the US side of the border. So I'm in kind of Lewiston area, although I spend a lot of time doing sort of cross border shopping, should we say, I don't suppose I should admit that too much.

So my, my nearest big city is either Buffalo or Toronto. So I spend a lot of time in those cities. Namely Toronto. Our daughter lives in Toronto. So we're mainly up there and of course we have to go to Pride every year. Because there's nothing like Toronto Pride. If you haven't been, go. It's fantastic. 

Bryan (He/they): Gosh, I want to, and honestly, I keep looking at that eight hour train ride from New York City to Niagara Falls, so maybe we'll be catching you there too.

Because it's one of, you know, it's one of the seven wonders of the world. It's something you want to see, and I can't wait. 

Jo (She/Her): It's absolutely fantastic. It's great. It's wonderful living here, it really, really is. And we get the best of both worlds living here. We have our queer community on this side of the river and also on the other side of the river as well, which is absolutely amazing.

And I am [00:03:00] actively involved in both, so it really is a great place to live. 

Bryan (He/they): That's awesome. Well, let's take a journey back in time. You said that you were in London, and I'm curious what life was like for you as a queer student. 

Jo (She/Her): Well, I'm going to admit it wasn't you know, it wasn't recent, put it that way.

And when I was a student, certainly, it was something that we did have a lot of queer students within, you know, within our university environment, but it wasn't something that we really, really spoke about. And it wasn't something that was, you know, publicized something that was, I don't want to use the word encouraged because that sounds like the wrong word.

We just were, I guess, underground for the most part. And it wasn't until we moved into, this was in the sort of the eighties, 1980s and 1990s. And it wasn't really until we moved into the 1990s that we started hearing about, More of a, an, an LGBTQ plus presence. Before that, really, it wasn't something that we spoke about.

And as a student, we had no support whatsoever. And it was [00:04:00] incredibly difficult as a student in, in sort of the, the US equivalent of high school, because we did not know anything about who we were. I spent a lot of time as a student, not really understanding who I was. And understanding that my parents had forced me down this very, this very sort of, you know, straight path, this path where I would get married, I would have children, I would marry a man, and that was the norm.

And so, to be perfectly honest, that was what was pushed at me, and that was something that I honestly thought was wrong. Well, that was the way life was and whether it made me happy or not didn't matter. There wasn't certainly anybody that was telling me that there was any alternative out there and that's where I really felt let down as a student.

Now, all of my friends happen to be gay, so all of my friends happen to be guys, and that was strange, wasn't it? You know, and we all kind of got together, but there was still this unspoken thing. We just didn't talk about it [00:05:00] at all. And I really felt as though there was an opportunity there to, for the, for the faculty, for, for all of the teaching staff to reach people in a way that, you know, we weren't being heard and we weren't being understood, but we didn't know any different.

And that was just how life was. And it wasn't until you start moving into adulthood that you realize, no, I'm okay. Actually, this is normal. I'm okay. It's just that. Nobody really knew how to relate to us. My parents never knew how to relate to me and no one else of that generation knew how to relate to us.

And that's a huge change now. I see a huge difference now in the way that we talk to our students in the way that we interact with our students and the way that we encourage our students, because that certainly didn't happen when, when I was at school. 

Bryan (He/they): Absolutely. I'm coming at this from like the Early 90s is kind of my first memories of school.

I had some schooling in the 80s, but my first memories of school are coming in early 90s and I agree with you. It's funny because I listen to people say, you know, that queer people are [00:06:00] grooming children to be queer people, but like my whole life I was groomed to be straight, quite literally. It was everywhere.

At school, at home, movies, television shows, societal expectations, and yet here I am. If it worked the way that people are saying that it works, we wouldn't exist. 

Jo (She/Her): I spent my, my, my sort of teenage years believing there was something wrong with me. And that in itself is quite damaging to any kid. It really is.

But I spent my teenage years believing there was something wrong with me because I didn't have the feelings that were imposed on me, the feelings that were expected. So my parents and everybody else I knew had imposed this, you know, This society on me and I didn't feel as though I was a part of that. I didn't feel as though I belonged [00:07:00] anywhere and I really didn't know what was wrong with me because I wasn't experiencing the things that everybody else was experiencing in the same way.

And so, I really, like you say, you know, when the media talks about we're imposing our gay agenda on people and I'd still like to know what that agenda is because if it doesn't involve being fabulous then I'm out. But, you know, we hear about this all the time, but like you said, we don't hear about this straight agenda that's imposed on all kids.

And that's a, that's a tragedy to be honest. To have a kid who is growing up, and I, and you know, I, I think about our kids who are trans, and to have a kid who is growing up not understanding why they feel the way that they do. And not having any support system in place. And I know that that must have been, that was hard for me, but it must've been even harder for those trans kids that were around my age at that time, because they [00:08:00] would have had absolutely nothing at all.

Bryan (He/they): Absolutely. You're so correct. And it's such a, it's such a shame because I think that people just need to, Treat children with care. So, let's talk about that. You work with adults either teaching adjunct at universities or with the general public, educating them on IT governance. So, how does your experience as a queer student and that kind of growing up without this representation, how does that inform your work in education?

Jo (She/Her): Wow. So, and I, I laugh and I hesitate about that because it depends on where I'm teaching as to how that has really, you know, influenced the way that I, the way that I work. When I'm working with universities, it's difficult. You know, it's, it's heartwarming to be perfectly honest, because we have a group of students, a group of young adults who are very certain about who they are.

And that is heartwarming for me. And it actually makes standing in a classroom [00:09:00] a pleasure. Because I know that these students know who they are. I know that these students are comfortable with who they are. And I also know that these students are comfortable talking to me about who they are as well. So, it really makes for a very, very warm environment.

But not all of my teaching is done in classrooms at universities. And quite often, I have to go into organizations and teach. Sometimes, I have worked with organizations where I have been made to feel incredibly uncomfortable. Organizations where I really do not want to be there. I have been informed that I have to tone down who I am when I'm teaching.

Now I don't go, don't get me wrong, I don't go and stand in a classroom, whether I've got 20 people in a classroom or whether I've got, you know, 75 people in a classroom. I don't walk into a classroom and talk about my wife. I just don't for two reasons. One is because my personal life is my personal life and I keep that separate.

But the other reason is I don't know who my audience is going to be. [00:10:00] I never know who they're going to be. And in some instances I have been in, in, should we say, deeply read environments where I've had to be very, very careful, and in which case I present completely differently. And that's very limiting.

It's very limiting when you're trying to teach. When you are trying to impart knowledge and when you are trying to help people understand, and you yourself feel uncomfortable, that's incredibly limiting. But there are times when I have walked into a classroom wearing a dress, wearing stilettos, wearing makeup, and feeling so uncomfortable.

And the only thing that does this for me, the reason why I do this is because that's how I was conditioned as a child. When you felt uncomfortable, you just, just got on with it. You just had to deal with it and you just had to, to get on with it. And so there are times when I have to do that. And why do I do that?[00:11:00] 

I can't explain other than it makes me feel incredibly nervous if I don't. 

Bryan (He/they): But I don't 

Jo (She/Her): have an answer for why I do it. 

Bryan (He/they): Yeah, I can, I've been put in situations because I, I work in theater education and a lot of the times that means that I'm also responsible for any of the special events that happen on campus.

And I've had to, you know, stage manage and direct Republican politicians coming in to talk about their current actual agenda that, that they are working on politically. And those environments. Even though it might be your space, like even if somebody's coming to you, because in that instance it's my space, right?

But when all these people enter my space and have that same kind of belief, it really does make you feel physically uncomfortable. And I always, like, I'm a non binary person. I identify as queer unilaterally. So gender and sexuality, that's where I'm sitting. And so, For the [00:12:00] most part though, I'm a collared shirt, slacks, or shorts type of person.

Just because I'm comfortable in it. I'm comfortable in that for my body. But I'm also a metallic nail polish, blue hair, nose ring person. And I find ways to express my gender that are more correct for me. And in those environments. I mean, I've had some times where I flipped my septum piercing up.

I've made sure to take my nail polish off. I do little things because having the hair isn't necessarily gonna, you know, trigger a response from somebody, but this kind of when your job is putting you in uncomfortable situations and being raised by folks who are like, suck it up. And you gotta do what you gotta do It's, it's really hard to get past that.

[00:13:00] And, also, you have to look out for your, you know, You have a daughter, and you have a wife, and you need to, you know, Bring home the bacon, as it were, and make sure you pay the house payment, and all those things come into play, and it's, and it's so frustrating. But, that actually segues nicely into the next thing I wanted to talk about, is like, what do you do when you're confronted with anti queer behavior?

Jo (She/Her): So, That, that answer is twofold because the answer really goes back to, I guess there are two answers as to whether it affects me or whether it affects the students. If it affects me, I'm more likely to just sort of suck it up and just get on with it and really just ignore the impact and just, you know, bite my tongue and get on with it.

And what you said there about having, having people coming into your environment, I was working at a studio in a red state. And I was recording training material. And during that time, we had a Republican Senator come in to record some promotional [00:14:00] videos. I'm not too sure exactly what he was doing and I was informed that he would be coming in and I was told that I really needed to stay away from him.

And there was an inference there that I was going to say something and my first thought was you know what? I'm not a non professional person. So please don't assume that I'm going to be but my second thought was This is my this is who I am and you're asking me to change who I am to accommodate somebody else and I It made me, again, it made me feel uncomfortable.

But how did I deal with it? I kind of just got on and thought, okay, it's like that, is it? And I just avoided that particular person. And I was put in a situation by the same organization. A few months later, where I was doing some live camera work. So we were streaming live and I was [00:15:00] asked not to mention the fact that I was LGBTQ I was asked not to mention the fact that I had a wife and we really didn't, we don't need everybody to know about that and we don't want to alienate people.

And that was, that was the exact phrase used. We don't want to alienate people. I walked out. That's how I dealt with that. I, I walked out. I said, that's it. That's it. As far as I'm concerned, that's just, not only is it discrimination, but there is absolutely no way that I would be that, that I would be respected, but also there's nothing I could have done about it.

We were in a deeply red state and despite the fact that discrimination laws exist. There was no way that anything could happen. So I'm, I'm very, I guess I'm quite forceful. I'm quite outspoken in, in that sense. I will tolerate up to a point, but after that, then it's no more. But if it's my students and I've had instances where I've been in a classroom and where my students, I, I had one particular classroom where I was, we were on a three day course and there was one particular [00:16:00] person in the room that was misgendering another student and this student had repeatedly asked this person not to misgender them.

And nevertheless, this other student kept doing this. And so I pulled the the student that was affected by it, I, I pulled them aside and just asked how they were feeling. And at the first possible opportunity, I took them aside and I said, How are you feeling? How does this sort of, you know, make you feel?

How does this impact your learning ability? And what can I do to help? And what they had said to me was, it's okay, I'm used to it. And my reaction was, you shouldn't have to be used to it. I am not tolerating this. This is my classroom. This is no one else's classroom. It's not that person's classroom. This is my classroom and I'm in charge of it.

And so the person that was actually being offensive in my eyes and in the other person's eyes, I pulled them to one side and I just said to them, I, you know, I need to have a word with you and you are deliberately misgendering this person and It's become obvious to everybody else in the classroom that you were doing this [00:17:00] deliberately.

Can you tell me Not what your problem is, because to be perfectly honest, I don't care. But could you tell me whether you can, whether you plan on continuing this behaviour? And they said, absolutely, this person is dressed in this way and therefore this makes them this. And I just immediately turned around to them and said, well, I'm going to have to ask you to take your books and to leave the classroom because you are not going to be part of this class anymore.

And I won't deal with it. It's not a great environment for students. I know what I went through as, as, you know, as a young adult, and I'm not going to allow anybody else to go through that. And perhaps I'm being incredibly protective, but that's my job. That's what I'm here. I'm here as an educator. And the other thing that I look at this is that as an educator, I am shaping the views and shaping the behavior of future leaders.

That's what my job is. Job is here to do. And so my responsibility is to ensure that they get not only a good education, but that they get a perspective that empowers them and [00:18:00] not a perspective that oppresses them. I know what I had, and I know it didn't do a heck of a lot for my confidence. So I don't want to put anybody else into, into that position.

Bryan (He/they): Absolutely. There's a couple of things that you mention in your stories that I think that are worth highlighting. First of all, it's frustrating to me that we are consistently, consistently treated as though we are gonna be the aggressor by people who are aggressive with us. So the instance with the Republican politician or conservative politician coming in to do work and they're like, you need to stay away from him because they were worried you were gonna say something, like We're the ones that are being beaten.

We're the ones that are having words slung at us. We're the ones that are dying. And yet, somehow, we're the aggressive person. So, and I'm looking at you, for those who are listening, I mean, she's a very [00:19:00] lovely white woman with short hair, clearly not an aggressive person, just from the look at you. And it's frustrating to me that, that in order to make a, I'm assuming, white heterosexual straight male feel comfortable, they needed to tamp down the tiny bit of difference that you hold, like, compared to other cisgender white women.

So that I found incredibly frustrating. I also love the fact that you pointed out the behavior and said, like, I don't want to know what the problem, what your problem is, because again, like, when I'm in classrooms and I'm teaching, I'm not necessarily, like, I'm not trying to change people's minds about me.

I'm just trying to be me. I'm trying to teach the material, and that's all there is to it. And when you're working in adult settings, [00:20:00] we have the luxury, this isn't necessarily the case for the K 12 teachers, but we have the luxury in college settings as well as in training courses like the one you're just mentioning, a three day seminar, to say, you can leave.

There's another section you can sign up for, there's another course you can take, and you don't have to be in this course with me. And I don't care what Behind the scenes paperwork needs to happen, I will take care of that paperwork so that that person does not need to be in this space. Because if you can't be respectful, you don't need to be here.

Jo (She/Her): That's exactly who I am. I mean, you mentioned, I think, authenticity was, was a word that you used, and that's exactly who I am. This is now, you know, I'm comfortable now in, in who I am, I'm comfortable in, in my own space. Do I find myself in situations sometimes where I do feel uncomfortable? Absolutely. And I think we all do.

And I think as, as queer people, we all do. all do. You know, there is always going to be a time when you walk into a coffee shop and somebody behind you is having a [00:21:00] conversation that makes you feel incredibly uncomfortable. We're not past all of that, yes. I wish we were past all of that, but we're not. And so, how you handle that is really key.

And what I don't want to do, and what I'm very conscious of in a classroom, is I don't want to validate their Thoughts and their opinions and their feelings. I'm not going to validate that. Because what's important to me is the person that's feeling oppressed. And what's important to me is that everybody is treated exactly the same in my classroom.

I don't care who you are. I don't care what your background is. And I honestly don't care what your beliefs are. But if you are bullying somebody else in my classroom, then I'm going to do something about it. And I am in a position of authority in that classroom. And you might not like the fact that you have got a lesbian woman in a position of authority, but you know what?

The door's over there. You don't [00:22:00] have to stay here. And that, to me, is about being authentic. That's about not so much standing firm, but just being authentic. Really ensuring that everybody has an equal, an equal opportunity to learn. That's what's important to me. I want everybody to walk away from a class feeling as though they've learned something and feeling as though they've had value in that class rather than walking away.

Walking away feeling bullied, feeling picked on, feeling depressed, you know, that's exactly what I don't want to happen. There's enough of that that goes on outside of the classroom. I don't want it to happen under my watch as it were. You know, when, when you said there that I look sort of quite soft and, and I look, or I don't know that that was the word you used, but you know, I look quite placid.

Oh, I'm not. And my wife will tell you otherwise, but yeah, I'm, I, yeah, I, I'm definitely not. And I, but I think that comes with confidence in the, you know, I'm going to stand up for myself and I'm going to stand up for other people as well, because there's not enough of that, I don't think. Right. 

Bryan (He/they): Yeah, I think that the word I [00:23:00] used was non aggressive.

But regardless, everybody should have that little fire in them to be able to fight back when they need to, no matter how soft and cuddly they look on the outside. But you just segued nicely into another bit of conversation. You mentioned that now, now you are comfortable with your own, like, confidence and your authenticity in your space.

What advice would you give to someone who's just starting out about being authentic at work? 

Jo (She/Her): One step at a time. And, and that's probably my approach to absolutely everything is if it's something that scares you, if it's something that you feel nervous about, if it's something that you're feeling wary And you know, some people, not everybody is confident.

That's why I'm a teacher because I'm pretty outward in, in sort of, you know, in who I am, but not everybody is like that. And so I say one step at a time, change one little thing about you, be yourself in one little way and do it [00:24:00] gradually. You know, and I'm just trying to think. So for me, it was really about, you know, moving and transitioning towards being comfortable with myself.

A lot of this was about outward appearance. A lot of it was, you know, I, I grew up in, in a way that I was forced into this sort of, you know, heteronormative sort of behavior. And so I grew up wearing stiletto heels, wearing dresses, wearing a A whole ton of makeup wearing, you know, having my hair long, etc.

And so what I found was I changed one little thing. So the first thing I did was I changed from wearing dresses into wearing Pants or trousers as I would call them. And that was something that made me feel incredibly comfortable. And it was so empowering. And it was such a tiny, tiny little change, but it felt so empowering.

And all of a sudden I was walking with a lot more confidence. Was I still wearing stilettos? Absolutely. Did I still have some makeup on? Sure I did. And then I had my hair cut. And then, and so I did [00:25:00] little things, gradual things, one step at a time. Don't try and do everything all at once. What will happen is you will walk into, into a classroom or into any environment and you will see, You will walk in there and you will look completely different.

If you try and change everything, you'll act in a completely different way. And you know what's gonna happen. Somebody's gonna turn around and say to you, oh, you look different. And the minute they do that, the seeds of doubt start appearing in your head. The minute somebody says something about your appearance or your behavior, you start doubting yourself.

One thing at a time. That's all I would say. Change one little thing about you. Get comfortable with that. Get comfortable with wearing trousers in public. Get comfortable with that and then think, Okay. Now I'm going to switch to brogues because I really find them comfortable. And you know, my first pair of brogues were absolutely hilarious.

They were silver. I mean, they were so obvious. I loved them. [00:26:00] I still have them now, 20 years later. But, you know, switch something, just something small. And you'll find that you will soon become, you know, a lot more confident in who you are. 

Bryan (He/they): I think that's such great advice because there is this mentality of like, you have to show up all or nothing and I think that taking those baby steps is so important because, as you mentioned, it helps to build your confidence.

Confidence. Each step is a step towards a more confident you. And I think that's so Necessary, especially right now because when we're living in such a turbulent time, those little things are actually big things for you personally in a world that's telling you that like, we want you to be quiet, we want you to go back into the closet, we don't want to hear from you, we don't want you to have rights, all of these things are happening, but if you're just like, I'm gonna get my ears [00:27:00] pierced, or I'm going to cut my hair short, or I'm gonna wear pants.

Then that little bit is just like taking up your space in the world the way that you want to be. And the more that you do that, the more you'll get comfortable taking up legitimate space in the world. 

Jo (She/Her): I think it's very scary at the moment certainly in the States anyway. I, I know that life is, is different outside of the States, but certainly in the U.

S. It's very scary at the moment. If you are I want to tell a little story if I can. When I first moved to the US, I was teaching, so I came over as a teacher. And I was teaching, you know, IT. It's what I've always done. And I was on my way back to the UK. And at the time I was traveling every week. So every weekend I was in an airport and doing a transatlantic flight.

And I was sat at an airport in the South Charlotte airport. I mean, there's no point in lying about it. It was, it's a large airport. And on the flight to London, there [00:28:00] was a young person. And they, they were sitting there, they had sort of pink hair and they had what looked like all their worldly belongings about them.

And they were probably in their late teens maybe early twenties. And they were crying. And I sat next to this person and I said, are you okay? Can I help? What, what's happening? Is there anything I can do? You know, what's happening with you? Sort of thing. And and they said to me, they said, I'm going to London because I've heard that it's friendlier.

And I said, well, it depends on where you go. Some places are friendly, some places aren't, but hey, isn't everywhere like that? And it was at that moment that I felt really, really, really pleased that I had. gain the confidence to dress and, and to act and be who I am. Because then this person said to me, no, by friendly, I mean, I've heard that it's friendlier to people like us.

And I said, well, from where we are yes, I can say that. But [00:29:00] what do you, what do you want to get out of this? And they said to me, they confided in me that they'd come out to their parents and their parents had gone to their pastor. And the pastor had told their parents that if they didn't change who they were, then the parents had to disown them and the parents would never to speak to them again.

And so this poor little thing, and I really, really hoped that they found their confidence in London. This poor little thing was getting on a plane to London all by themselves without Anybody, without knowing anybody, because they had heard that people were friendlier in London and that people were more accepting in England.

And you know, that broke my heart. That really did. I can't tell you what I wanted to do to the parents. I mean, , I mean, I didn't ask for their name and it's a good job, but I, you know, it absolutely broke my heart that, that that was, that that was happening. And I just think that, and we were in, we were in a worse [00:30:00] situation than we were.

That was, that was 12, 15 years ago. We're in a worse situation than we were then. And that makes me sad. So if I can do just a tiny little bit, whether it's in a classroom or even whether it's doing sort of, you know, when I, when I do mentoring, sometimes if I can do just a tiny little bit to try and change that or to try and give somebody a bit of confidence, a bit of self worth, then I'm going to do that.

Because I wish somebody had done it for me, but more importantly, I just remember that that person sitting at that airport lounge, so uncertain about their life. So uncertain. And it broke my heart. 

Bryan (He/they): Yeah. I've been in those situations, talking to students or children just like that. And you're absolutely correct.

It is a very good thing. I didn't get their parents name and address because I don't want to, you know, go to jail. And it drives me nuts because the, you know, I hear religious folks talk about unconditional love and then I hear religious folks put conditions on [00:31:00] love and it makes me so sad especially when it comes to their children.

Like, I could never imagine a world Where I would be willing to stop talking to any one of my children forever.

Jo (She/Her): I agree. I agree. And I, I, you know, from that moment on, I had said that, you know, my, there was absolutely no way that no matter who my daughter was with. No matter, you know, what she told me, I've always been a firm believer in, you know, not putting people down. I never ever have said to her, Oh, you're bad because it's not the person that's bad.

It may be the actions that they've done, but it's not the person that's bad. And I always said that I was always going to support her because my parents had never supported me. And I wanted to make sure that. She always felt supported, but it doesn't [00:32:00] just stay with her. There are so many people out there.

There are so many young kids out there that don't have that support at home. And if they don't get that support when they're in school, when they're in the classroom, when they are with their, you know, their peer group, when they're in common rooms, et cetera, then if they're not getting that support there, then where are they getting that support?

They're either not, or they're getting it in some very salubrious places, and that's not necessarily a good thing either. 

Bryan (He/they): Absolutely. So, we're gonna start winding down, and I have one question for you that can be, it can be about corporate training, it could be about your experience as an adjunct faculty member, but what What do you think the educational community can do to be more inclusive of queer people?

Jo (She/Her): Exactly the opposite of what they're trying to do right now. I think that's probably, probably the best answer I can give. I mean, stop banning books, you [00:33:00] know? Okay, that sounds a little bit flippant, but it's not because we are taking away so many support systems for our kids. So many. For absolutely no reason whatsoever other than vanity and, and somebody else's own beliefs and trying to force them onto our children.

I think that our, our kids need to be a little bit freer to explore who they are. And I'm not talking necessarily in any sort of sexual way, but just explore themselves to be free, not to be forced into, Oh, you're, you know, you were born in this particular gender. So therefore I'm going to make you wear pink dresses and I'm going to take you down the Barbie aisle.

That's the sort of thing that I, that we really need to, to stop. And we need to stop restricting our kids. You know, years ago. I remember the original movie Footloose and there was a part in that movie where, so I was in England at the time. I was a youngster and [00:34:00] I remember looking at this and they were burning books.

And I remember thinking to myself, why would you do that? Books are where you learn things. Why would you burn books? And here I am, finding myself, here we are, in the U. S., in, in, in the, you know, 20s now or 2000s, and here we are, we are doing exactly the same thing. So, my advice to the educational community is stop it!

For heaven's sake, why do we have to try and make what's in a movie reality? We don't need to. Allow our kids freedom and give them the support because they quite often don't have it at home. So give them support and allow them that freedom to express themselves and to express themselves how they want to express themselves and stop trying to force them into little bits.

Boxes. One of the things that we are accused of in, in our community is we're accused of creating labels for ourselves. And, you know, we're accused of, of creating our own little niche, you know, gay pride is one that's, Oh, why do we need pride? But we're not the culprits here. [00:35:00] Actually, you're the culprits here.

If I look at these straight communities and I say, But what you're doing is you're forcing a gender on somebody that might not be comfortable with that. You are forcing a way to act and to behave and to conduct your life on people that might not be comfortable with that. We're not the ones forcing anything.

We're advocating for more freedom. But you're trying to force people into little boxes. Stop it! Stop it. And I beg of every single teacher to give your kids that flexibility and that freedom to be who they want to be, rather than to try and force them into a little box. You were born this gender, so therefore you must like camo.

You know, this is just ridiculous. We've got to stop 

Bryan (He/they): it. I love camo and eating deer. That was, that was a soundbite right there, like that, that whole section was just so impactful because we've alluded to [00:36:00] this throughout our conversation, but oftentimes the people accusing us of things are the ones actually doing it.

And they're the ones that have created this heterosexual box that we are all expected to live in. And we were groomed into this. We were told that this is who you have to be and you're exactly correct. The books are being banned because of someone else's opinion and them trying to force it upon our children, all children, which is exactly what we're being accused of, which we are not doing.

So, you know, I would, I find that fascinating. So 

Jo (She/Her): I was taught by an English teacher once many, many years ago. She said to me, never stop reading because by reading, you will learn so much. You will gain so many different perspectives. So never ever stop reading. It doesn't matter whether it's a magazine article.

It doesn't matter whether it's a book. It doesn't matter whether it's a kid's book. [00:37:00] Read to gain a wider perspective. And I still say that to our kids now. Read to gain a wider perspective. And you know what? There's a lot of these straight people that are trying to ban books. Why don't you read one first?

Read one. Try and understand that perspective. And then make a decision. Then form an opinion. Don't form an opinion based on the cover or based on a title. Form an opinion, an educated opinion. And that's what's amazing. 

Bryan (He/they): Yep, I actually, I argue in the comments. I'm a comment arguer. I know people say not to do it, but I do it.

And one of the comments that on YouTube recently about the podcast was basically someone accusing us of like trying to keep up with the Joneses when it comes to like, we're just trying to emulate heteronormativity. So basically accusing all queer people of homonormativity. And I was like, well. If you really believe that, then maybe you should listen to the podcast.

Like, why don't you give a [00:38:00] few episodes a listen and tell me whether or not you actually believe through these people's lived experiences that that's what's happening here. Because you really do need to educate yourself.

We are here at our final question. And this one actually comes from a listener. And so this is our ask an educator question and it comes from Austin in Georgia. And Austin asks, why did you go into education? 

Jo (She/Her): Well, hi Austin. Really nice to meet you. Why did I go into education? I'm not going to lie.

I fell into it. It was purely by accident. And then I discovered that I actually enJoed it and that people liked it. So that's how I ended up in education. I had been working in IT for a number of years. And I'd gone to a training class, actually, and I found this trainer, this particular trainer, to be so [00:39:00] enigmatic.

He was an absolute force. He was, he just commanded the classroom. And I remember watching him thinking, I'd like to do that. And so that was when I approached him and I said, I want to be you. And he said, actually, I think that you've got the right personality. I think you could. And so I just said, okay, where do I start?

And that's where I really sort of got into the you know, in, into all the intricacies of, of teaching and, and everything about learning all about, you know, how to behave in a classroom. And I don't mean sort of, you know, be a, be a good person, but I mean, certain things like, you know, make sure you're talking to everybody in the room and, and make sure that everybody's awake because if they're sleeping, they're not learning anything, that sort of thing.

And so I fell into it and then I found out that I actually enJoed it. But more importantly than that, I started getting people asking for me by name and that's really how I, I got started. And then I was asked to [00:40:00] come over to the States and this was not me trying to, to come over to the States. This was actually an organization saying, we'd like you to come over to, to the U S and we'd like you to teach.

And. So I accepted and here I am. I'm still doing exactly the same thing. I still love it. There are still challenges. There are days when I get absolutely burnt out. There are some days when I get. I'll turn off my, my laptop or I, I come home and I'm, I'm sort of, oh, I don't wanna do this anymore. But then, you know what, give it another week.

And I think, no, actually no. I miss the classroom. I miss that interaction of the classroom. I'm, yes, yes, I'm gonna take another class on. And so I fell into it by accident. I absolutely loved it. And you know what? I love the influence that I can have. And as long as I can have a positive influence, and as long as people see value in what I have got to teach, then I'm not going to stop either.

Bryan (He/they): Absolutely. Thanks, Austin, for your question. If you [00:41:00] would like to hear your question and you're listening at home or on your walk or run or wherever, you can click the Ask a Queer Educator podcast episode and then it will send me a text message with your question. Joe, thank you so much for spending some time with me today.

I really appreciate it. I just thoroughly enJoed our conversation. 

Jo (She/Her): Thank you as well, Bryan. I have absolutely enJoed our conversation too. And I hope that people are, well, not only people enJo our conversation, but I really hope that you know, people can take something away from this. And that really, you know, all I ask is that everybody listening just give our kids a chance.

Please, that's all I ask. And that's my own personal plea to everybody.