70. How Centering Black Trans, Gender-Expansive, and Queer Students Makes for an Inclusive School

How do queer educators navigate the challenges of a traditional school system while working to create inclusive and supportive spaces for all students?

In this episode, we dive deep with Dr. Danelle Adenij (she/they)i, a recent PhD graduate and experienced educator, as she shares her journey from a third-grade classroom to teaching future educators. Danelle explores her groundbreaking dissertation on creating liberatory spaces for Black queer teachers and discusses how her personal experiences as a queer student shape her approach to education today.

Through our conversation you will discover: 

• How centering Black trans and gender-expansive students is crucial for dismantling oppressive systems.
• How education should prioritize joy and inclusivity.
• Explore the impact at our working in education has on marginalized students

Tune in now to gain insights on how to champion inclusivity in education and ensure every student feels seen and valued.

Transcript

Bryan (he/they): [00:00:00] Hi Danelle. How are you doing today? 

Danelle (they/them): I'm doing good, Bryan. How are you doing? 

Bryan (he/they): I am so fantastic. I'm excited to be able to spend some time with you. Can you tell everybody who you are? 

Danelle (they/them): Yes, my name is Danelle Adeniji. I am a recent, PhD graduate. From the University of North Texas. I'm also a former elementary classroom teacher.

Third grade is my favorite. Like, they're just phenomenal. And I currently work in higher education teaching pre service teachers. And I've been in education for ten years. And I live in Texas. 

Bryan (he/they): I love that so much. One of my goals when I became an educator was to eventually get to the level of teaching pre service teachers.

They're educators and I'm so excited because now that I work at a university, in the spring of next year, I'll be able to have my first class where I'm teaching future educators and I'm like, oh, I'm hitting those goals. so I love [00:01:00] that. you just got your doctorate. That's wonderful. May I ask just what your field of study was for your doctorate?

Danelle (they/them): Yes, the field was in curriculum and instruction, and my dissertation title is, Co constructing and Freedom Dreaming, Teacher Education Spaces for Black Queer Teachers. So, disrupting these archaic practices and teacher prep programs, and including more, Afrofuturism, queerness, and abolition. 

Bryan (he/they): I love that so much.

And I think we need more minority joy in the world. It doesn't always have to be about a struggle. There needs to be just, like, spaces where everyone, no matter who you are, Gets to thrive and we get to see that.

 I want to see more of that. 

Danelle (they/them): Exactly. 

And that's what my 

dissertation focused on was how Black queer teachers at different, paths in their education journey, how they pulled from their [00:02:00] queerness to create spaces and curricula and pedagogy For their students. Cause yeah, you know, there's a written curriculum, but being in this space, it's very white centered.

So how did you pull from that to create what the students need? Cause the blueprints already there, right? Our ancestors already created this blueprint. So how are we drawn from it? 

Bryan (he/they): Absolutely. I love that so much. I'm in the process of helping to produce an event that is inspired by, the evolution of, black music from tribal drumming all the way to Gospel churches and whatnot it's like a whole piece on that evolution I just do the behind the scenes work because that's my job I help with the microphones and the sound and all that i'm so excited.

to participate because I just love seeing People claiming their history and showing the joy that comes from different things. It's an exciting time and I think that's so cool I can't wait to dive into [00:03:00] the interview because I feel like you have such an interesting perspective, not only because of your experience, but also because of your field of study.

So let's dive in a little bit. What was life like for you as a queer student? 

Danelle (they/them): I love this question because, you know, somebody just asked me, how would you change your teenage years if you could? And my number one question is always to go back to being my full queer self. Like, I would just be fully gay all the time.

I grew up in a very strict, Christian household. And with the community that had, I felt safe. I was like, yeah, I'm a little gay, you know, a little bit. A lot of my, as a student in K through 12, a lot of it was staying within the binary, staying within norms that people expected and wanted from me.

And I tell people and I tell students like in third grade, I knew who I [00:04:00] liked. I knew I liked the girls and they, thems. Okay, because I was always trying to be daddy, but you know, the environment, the society that we live in and, oh yeah, my pronouns are they them because gender is too expansive to stick to one vibe.

Like we don't live in a binary. So my parents were always like at that time, this is how girls act. This is how young ladies act. You know, you need to find you a man and all this stuff. And I'm just like, I'm 

Bryan (he/they): I love that your response is, I would just be all gay all the time. Like I would be my little queer self all the time. And I think that is so fun because I mean, realistically. I have no desire to go back to high school, but if I did, I was outed very young. I was outed at 14. So at least in high school, I was somewhat out.

I kind of hid [00:05:00] again because I was worried about bullying and stuff like that. But I think back about how I've grown from that experience and the kind of like no nonsense attitude I have about things now where I'd be like, Oh no, I would give no craps what you have to say. I bought myself a pair of leather pants like full on leather pants Because I was like, that's what That's what queer people wear, right?

Danelle (they/them): This is a part of the outfit. 

Bryan (he/they): Right? This is just, it is the uniform. And so I bought them, but I never wore them out except for one time because I was petrified. And if I were to go back, I would wear them out in the winter because they were hot. I would definitely wear them more and just be more comfortable wearing them.

Being who I was, regardless of what people have to say. Because in the end, the only person that matters is you. 

Danelle (they/them): Exactly. Right? I think about the moments that I liked in high school. One of [00:06:00] them being when they had the gender switch day. And I came in some jean shorts, and a jersey.

And my gender euphoria was at a 50%. Like you couldn't tell me nothing. I'm in Houston, Texas and just feeling myself. And then I remember the first girl I liked in high school. I sent her a letter and everything. Like just those beautiful queer moments. Stick out in my mind, because as you shared, our stories, our queer, trans, gender expansive stories, they're not all about trauma, they're not all about pain, they're not all about struggle.

But in the midst of these things, we find community, we find a way to thrive, we find a way to be our beautiful selves. And so, yes, like, in high school, like, yes, gender switch day, just at full euphoria. 

Bryan (he/they): Yeah, it's so funny because now I'm like, as a teacher, I was like, huh, [00:07:00] we're really still doing gender switch days.

But now, I'm thinking about this, and your perspective is so different because I'm worried about the people who are going to make fun of trans people. but as a theater teacher, I've had the privilege of being able to put trans kids in the roles of their gender. and to see them kind of transform because they have this new uniform they get to wear that really is more akin to how they want to present themselves, I can see how valuable that can be, and you've just given me a perspective that I hadn't considered about those theme days.

Danelle (they/them): Right? there are problematic parts to it. And there are harmful parts to it. And at the same time, just like you shared for students like me and trans and gender expansive students, it can be an opportunity to fully be [00:08:00] ourselves and oppressive society that tells us you need to dress like this.

You need to dress in this binary and that's it. 

Bryan (he/they): Yeah. It's like a tiny bit of permission to be you within this very structure. So thinking about your experience as a queer student, how does that inform your work in education? 

Danelle (they/them): So it, my priority is to create educational spaces and communities where everyone can exist and be their free selves.

And I center black and trans and gender expansive students, because there's a quote that says, like, When black women are free, everyone's free. But I take it a bit further, when black trans women are free, everyone is free. Please. Yes. 'cause that means that patriarchy, misogynoir sexism, these things don't exist.

These [00:09:00] chains are gone. Right? So if I can create that space when we, when we co-create those spaces, that means that you feel safe to be your absolute self. I love telling this story when, When I started teaching, I wasn't really out because, you know, when you go through teacher prep, when you go through these programs, they will never really talk about being your authentic self.

And so it took me a while to finally be opening out and share, you know, my identity with kids and things. And I remember I had one student, well, at that time I have a five year old son and his other parent would come visit me and they'd be like, who is that? Is that your sister? Is that your aunt? Who is that?

I'd be like, mind your business. Who is that? Is that your cousin? Is that your friend? Who is that? Once again, mind your business. Because we're taught to, if I tell somebody I'm gay, if I tell somebody I'm queer, oh no, it's gonna rub off on them. It's [00:10:00] gonna be this whole big controversial thing. So, when I was teaching, this one student came and told me, at that time, she was like, Miss Identity, I know who that is that's coming to visit you.

And I know that y'all are having a kid. And I'm okay with it. Like, I'm even, I even like girls myself. I'm bisexual. Mind you, this is a fourth grader. That moment I said, I will never, like, there will never be a space that I'll go, that I will be in the closet. Nobody will ever push me back, because students are open.

Like, young kids, they're understanding, they're able to grasp these concepts. It's adults in society who tell them, this is controversial, this is not right, this is wrong. A student just be, they focus on the, on the emotions and the connections that they feel with that teacher. And these are the lessons that I take to these pre service teachers.

Cause one of the questions [00:11:00] that I ask them, I'm like, why do you want to be a teacher? Why are you here? And their answers are like, well, you know, I had a great role model. Oh, I just love kids. And I'm like, in today's environment, you're going to need so much more than that. That's not enough.

Bryan (he/they): Absolutely. 

Love, role models, nobody asks you to be their role model. It's hard out there. I love that story because I think what a lot of people, well, what a lot of adults are doing is they're focusing, hyper focusing on the sex side of things. Because of the term sexuality, because of the term homosexuality.

They're completely forgetting about the heterosexuality being like a sexuality. But the, the wild part for me is that for kids, it really is just about emotion. When I was a kid and I had girlfriends or whatever, like it was just because I liked the person and it's no different for, you know, a queer kid, they like a person, they have an emotional [00:12:00] connection to this person and that's all there is It's not a, it's not about sex.

And I think that more heterosexual people need to just realize that it's really not about sex. It's about the connection. 

Danelle (they/them): Because more heterosexual people are doing damage because can I say this? Like they act like we're going to go into these classes. Hey, today we're going to talk about how, how I'm queer and how we have sex.

Let's bring out the toys. Let's bring out the porn. Like that's what they always go to. Right? And in my dissertation, I broke down how, heteronormativity, and how cisgender is so ingrained in our society. When a teacher has a picture of her family, of her husband and kids, what do you think that is?

What are you promoting? When a teacher shows up pregnant, what do you think that is? 

Bryan (he/they): Yes, 

Danelle (they/them): yes. Just saying, boys line, girls [00:13:00] line, girls wear this, boys wear this. What do you think you're promoting? 

Bryan (he/they): 100%. And that's the wild part. I have literally been conditioned my whole life to be cisgender and heterosexual.

And here I am. Neither of those things. So this idea that we can groom children to be something that they're not is just wild to me. And that we can do it in a classroom. 

Danelle (they/them): In the state of Texas, there are so many groomers who are teachers. And they're heterosexual people. You know what I mean?

Young kids and then going through and going out and having these relationships with them. But they're not condemned like we are, saying I'm gonna be my full out self. Well, I don't want you rubbing off on my kids. I don't want you doing that. Whatever you do in your bedroom is your business. You're literally [00:14:00] promoting what you do in your bedroom every single day.

Bryan (he/they): And it's like 

Danelle (they/them): people lack the critical thought, critical analysis to break down their practices and beliefs to see how harmful it is. 

Bryan (he/they): Yes, that 100%. That drives me wild. And you're absolutely correct. Because when we look, if you look at the statistics, someone called me a pedophile the other day because I have a blue hair, folks who aren't watching this podcast.

I have Bleached hair with blue front. I'm very, you know, cute. and so, this guy was like, your hair makes you look like a pedophile. And I was like, I thought to myself, I mean, statistically, look at the pedophiles. They are white cisgendered people 90 percent of the time. When you look at the teachers, when you look at the teachers who are actually engaging in relationships with high school students.

A lot of them are women, [00:15:00] and they're also white. the archetype of the quote unquote perfect person in a capitalist white supremacist world is the one doing the damage, but they're blaming everybody else. Society.

Y'all, if you could see these facial expressions. 

Danelle (they/them): Ooh! 

Bryan (he/they): We are having a moment. 

Danelle (they/them): Yes, thank you, fully just agreeing. Eyebrows, mouth tight, everything. Everything. The teaching force is predominantly made up of white and Latinx white looking women. And just like you said, they're the main ones catching cases.

But you're calling me a pedophile because I want to openly and freely exist. And I'm a teacher. 

Bryan (he/they): That right there. It doesn't matter what you're actually doing. It literally could be, I had the same day. So the same conversation, I was wearing one of my favorite shirts, which is basically just a polo shirt and it has [00:16:00] ice cream cones on it and the ice cream cones are rainbows and you know, I teach theater, I mean, I teach at a university now, so it doesn't really matter, but this guy was like, are you a teacher?

And I was like, yeah, cause I, I guess I look like a teacher. so that's, that's a win. And then it goes like, wow, your hair makes you look like a pedophile. Just speaking the truth. And I'm like, oh no, no, you're really not. What you're telling me right now is that you'd rather listen to what other people tell you than to actually do any kind of research.

Danelle (they/them): Because that is, that's the trend. That is what's happening. Like, let's, let's make these people who are just fighting for fundamental rights and the right to exist, they are, they are the oppressors. Right? We're losing our rights. Bring back the traditional family. Bring back these notions. And don't take the time, and they don't take the time to think for themselves at all.

Because when I'm teaching these classes, I'm [00:17:00] asking these students, connect the dots. Because look, I get a lot of pushback. And they just, well, you're teaching about this, we just need to teach about reading, math, science, all the other stuff don't matter. Let their parents teach it.

And their parents are also teaching hate. They're teaching racism. They're teaching queerphobia. They're teaching transphobia. I tell them I have a five year old kid. I teach you as if you're gonna teach my kid one day. 

Bryan (he/they): Yes, that part. My children are adopted. My three older kids are Mexican descent and my youngest is half white and half black.

so for me when I go out and look in the spaces we were living in San Antonio, I ended up teaching at a good district but it was in a conservative community. what does that mean in the state of Texas? It means It's 90 percent white. when we moved out of the state, we specifically sought spaces where our children would be in the majority [00:18:00] so that they would have the experience of not feeling like the only person on campus who looks like them.

And there's something to be said about teachers who get training like what you're offering, where it's about personal connection. I'm teaching you. As if you are going to teach my child. Because I don't want my child to feel like they're separated because of the color of their skin or their queerness, or because of X, Y, and Z, whatever the situation would be.

They shouldn't feel othered because society has drilled into teachers that this is what the expectation is. And this is what you're supposed to do. I love culturally responsive pedagogies because I think about the fact that it is an effort to try, and I'm saying try because it's not perfect, nothing we do is perfect, but to try to be inclusive of all the perspectives in your classroom.

And that's really lacking in curriculum, especially, I think [00:19:00] about the books I read in English were predominantly written by straight white men. I mean, even when I was younger, I didn't read many things that were by a woman unless that woman had a pseudonym. and then, now I see more things happening where there is things that are written by women, but it's like trauma.

I think about my, when my son was in 7th grade, he read, Speak. which is about date rape. At 11! and I'm like, wait a minute. But they're not bad or 

Danelle (they/them): not. 

Bryan (he/they): Right, but you, you're, you're allowed, okay, so now we have a woman in the conversation, right? This is her perspective of what happened and all this stuff, but it's like, it's a good book.

I've read it. I, I enjoyed it in college when I read it. it is a young adult book, so that's fine, but I just think about the fact that it's like, if we're gonna include the stories, then they're gonna be filled with [00:20:00] trauma. And it's hard because even as a, as a theater teacher, I try to be more expansive, right?

With my curriculum. And I try to show things, from various perspectives. And I want to include Toni Morrison and folks in my work. But I think about like the bluest eye, which is a beautiful piece, but there's so much trauma in it. And so it's like, what we need at the moment is more queer and POC.

People creating content that focuses on joy just period 

Danelle (they/them): exactly 

Bryan (he/they): so that way we can share that with kids Because it shouldn't be just about trauma. It shouldn't be about child abuse. It shouldn't be about slavery. It shouldn't be about, you know, having to work in the fields if you were, you know, Mexican American and, and, you know, the Cesar Chavez movement that happened over in California.

Like, it shouldn't Be about the struggle we need to have stories about the joy [00:21:00] I just started listening to a book by a gay man and he's talking about his mother's death and he said like We had a big falling out because he came out and he said that I have to remember that there was so much love And despite that love, I still had this falling out.

And so even if we have trauma, there is love and there is happiness. 

Danelle (they/them): Because we're not asking anyone to ignore the trauma or overlook the trauma. The trauma just isn't my full story. 

Bryan (he/they): Absolutely. 

Danelle (they/them): Right. It feels like when we talk about our queer and trans ancestors, it starts at Stonewall.

And I get it, that's beautiful, but it started even further than that. And it started in a place of love, in a place of joy, in a place of thriving. My research also looks at children's [00:22:00] literature. And how can we center queer and Afrofuturism? How can we find and read these books to supplement our curriculum and then to also highlight our beautiful intersectional stories.

One of my favorite picture books is, Rainbow. It's by a black mother and her black trans daughter. And it goes on the journey of Trinity needing to find the right hair to complete her identity. Cause she's like, Mom, I'm a trans girl. I need this kind of hair. And her mom was like, Your hair is fine.

It's great. Like, look, my hair is short. And she's like, Mom, of course, because you're a cisgender girl. We're different. These are not my experiences. And so it goes on a journey of how Trinity's family, they all come together to create what she needs. Like in the midst of that story, it's this is a problem that I have.

This is what's going on with me. how can we create, [00:23:00] provide spaces to where I feel whole, right? Because what if he looked at it from that perspective and not just Trinity ain't got no hair, she a black trans girl, so that's it. Oh my 

Bryan (he/they): gosh, I love that so much because it really is about doing what's right for your child.

Exploring in theater we always say like, yes, and, okay, yes, we're doing this, and we're doing this. I'll have to check that out. I hadn't heard of that one. So thank you for sharing. thinking about all, we've been talking a little bit about the trauma and whatnot. I was wondering what are some things that you do when you're confronted with anti queer behavior?

Danelle (they/them): the first thing is to, for me, it's important to have a community around me, like people who stand 10 toes down for me. And What I do, I ask them questions about themselves, like, okay, so what is, what is your issue, and why do you [00:24:00] feel this way? Because, it's important to hear and understand other people's perspectives.

Even if it is coming from an oppressive and, harmful place. for example, you know, I get, well, you know, the parents, they just need to talk to their kids. Like, I don't understand why you're teaching this. I don't understand why you're doing this. This is not important. I am a Christian. cause these are a lot of things that I, a lot of feedback that I get in the courses that I teach.

And I'm like, well, statistically, the facts state that the classrooms that. We exist in the classrooms that are happening now. They are, they are more multilingual, multigender, more multiracial. And so what you're telling me is that you're only going to teach one kind of kid. You're just going to be over here with these kids.

So, and I really asked them to unpack, like, what's the [00:25:00] issue? What's going on? Like, why you said you want to enter this profession, is it just because you want to stick to this one binary model? If that's the case, I want to let you know, boo boo, you're going to do a lot of harm. So, what I do when I'm confronted with anti queer behaviors, 

like I said, community.

People that have had me ten toes down, and especially what the students hear about, what do you have to say, and offer, Here's some readings, here's some credible readings, here's some facts, here's some information. Because I'm not here to change anybody's mind. I'm not here to convince you of me needing fundamental rights.

That's a journey that you have to take, right? And also, I tell them, it's a lot of emotional labor. When we are constantly teaching, when we're constantly standing up for people, when we're constantly at the front line, it's a lot of emotional labor. So I share, you know, [00:26:00] be aware, be conscious of the emotional labor that you're putting out.

Because you can share your story, you can do all this, and at the end of the day, who's going to be there to take care of you? when you are having to work through this labor, work through these feelings again. 

Bryan (he/they): Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things when I deal in comments I comment back, especially on the podcast because I want to make sure that again, we are never silenced.

one of the things that I always say is that perhaps you should listen to a few episodes. I can just point you in the direction. Here's a podcast talking about queer. educators from queer educators perspective. Perhaps you should listen to a few episodes before you have any other opinions about it.

And that's all there is to it. 

Danelle (they/them): Because you ain't listening to nothing. You're just repeating some points that you heard from somebody else. You haven't read anything. That's it. You can't have your own [00:27:00] critical thoughts, your own critical wonderings, and not doing this whole, like, just to be the devil's advocate, just to, just to, you know, be, just to be condescending, just to have another point of view.

No, you're doing it to be harmful. You're, you're just being a parent. That's it. And one of my favorite things about teaching pre service teachers, Like, that really helps, gets me through this, is when a queer teacher, trans teacher, gender expansive teacher, they come ask me, one, how did you do it in the classroom?

Like, what did you do? How did you make it? Because I feel like I'll have to hide who I am. And so we have those discussions, and then also when teachers are like, I haven't met anybody like you. Like, I didn't think it was possible to be out and a teacher. 

Bryan (he/they): So let's dive deeper [00:28:00] into that because that is a beautiful segue into my next question, which is if you've got a student who's legitimately coming to you with those concerns about authenticity at work, what's some practical advice that you might give them?

Danelle (they/them): Practical, I would say, honestly, represent yourself and be yourself to where you feel comfortable, to where you're not harmed. Like if, if you know like you exist in a space or district that they will fully open you, fully embrace you, that's amazing. Right? But like, you know, if you are teaching in a conservative school, a conservative state, I don't want to say, like, hide yourself because We don't do that.

But I also want you to be safe. So find a way that you can still channel and be your full, you know, queer, trans, gender expansive self that feels comfortable to you and you're [00:29:00] also safe. 

Bryan (he/they): Yes. 

Danelle (they/them): Yeah, cause safety is, safety is important. There's a lot that's happening right now in this country. And sometimes I would rather us to be safe and be in community with each other.

And then when you're ready, like, go, go put on that full armor. Okay, put on your full armor of queerness and take a stand against everything and everybody. Because Danelle's gonna be right there with you. I'm never ever gonna leave you alone in these streets, whatever community you need, we'll be there together.

Know that I have your back. But also, be safe. Be 

Right now, it is all about be safe. And it's so frustrating that we're at that point because there really is this dichotomy of like, the comfort of straight white Christian people over the safety of any queer person. Exactly. Exactly.[00:30:00] 

Bryan (he/they): So, what do you think the educational community can do to be more inclusive of queer people?

Danelle (they/them): It starts with unpacking your biases. Unpacking your harmful, trauma filled biases. Like, what do you believe about queer people? What, why do you believe that? Where does that come from? Now, there's a thin line between being a co conspirator and being performative. Like, like I said, if you see, for example, if you see somebody that keeps coming at me and attacking me and attacking me, and you say, Danelle, like, I'm here for you, like, I have your back.

Well, have my back. Go openly speak up about it. Don't leave me standing there alone looking around. Where's my support system, right? Like if you if you see something say something and especially if it's from a cisgender White person they they gonna hear that. So, you know and the education [00:31:00] community can also increase, you know, where are they getting their curriculum from?

What are we reading? Fight back against these book bans? Like, openly speak up. I know we gotta pay our bills. I know we gotta eat. But if everybody says something, they can't fire us all. 

Bryan (he/they): See, that was my whole philosophy when I was living in Texas, was like, I know that we're not allowed to unionize here.

However, if all of us do it, are they gonna take all of our licenses? They are not. That's what they want you to believe. I mean, the whole union movement throughout the history of the US has been people in power saying, you can't do that. And you just unions being like, well, watch me, because if we are all collectively doing it, we're all collectively doing it.

And I think you're absolutely correct that they can't fire all of us. you have to speak up. You have to say something. You have to be a co conspirator, which is, [00:32:00] One of my new favorite terms, I learned it in a pedagogy class last year. because it just adds a little bit more weight to you, as opposed to like ally.

Danelle (they/them): Thank you. Cause an ally, you know, they can put their coat on. I'm an ally and they can take it off. 

Bryan (he/they): No joke. When I was teaching high school in Texas, we had these pride shirts made for, our saga, our, sexuality and gender association. And they, had a cool logo on them that said pride. And like some group of allies actually asked if I could put ally on it 

Me not thinking about it, just going through like, It's my first year, I'm just trying to sell these shirts and get some support for these kids. I did it. And then the next year I said, I absolutely refuse to put ally on the shirt because why do you need to distinct yourself? Why do you need to separate yourself from the kids who are in this organization?

If you're an ally, you don't need to have that label. You need to just show up and do the work. 

Danelle (they/them): Because it sounds like you're worried about being labeled as queer, [00:33:00] trans, something else. You're like, no, no, no, I'm ally. 

Bryan (he/they): I'm not, I'm not, you know, I, I'm straight. 

Danelle (they/them): Exactly. 

Bryan (he/they): So, at this point in our interview, we have a question from one of our listeners. today's question comes from Brittany in South Carolina, and Brittany asks, With the education field getting so difficult, why stick around? 

Danelle (they/them): That's a fabulous question, Brittany, and it's valid, right? Because sometimes it feels like the educational field is on fire, And they just keep adding more gasoline and flames.

But like we've been talking about here, they want you to leave. They want you to give up. They want you to say, look, I'm good. I'm done. I'm gonna go do something else. the moment that you give up, the moment that you walk away, not you specifically, but everybody, that's when they're really just going to take full control.

Because remember, [00:34:00] education was started to be this great equalizer. Like, it was meant to be this great equalizer, to share knowledge, to share space. And that is being co opted and turning children into factory workers, turning education into a business. that's not what education is. We're here to share.

We're here to learn. We're here to be in community with each other. So, I stay in education because I know that there are black and brown queer kids coming through education who are ready to set this world on fire. And they need a support system. They need people who will have their backs and say, I'm standing with you.

Whatever we need to do, let's do it. Because these kids nowadays, they are critical thinkers. They just don't take somebody's word and say, nah, that's it. But you know, I stay in education because we have [00:35:00] beautiful moments where kids who have never felt seen, who have never felt safe, when they enter your classroom, my classroom, our classroom, that's the only space where they feel safe.

That's the only space they feel seen. And look, if we saved a life that day, then it was all worth it. 

Bryan (he/they): That part right there. If we saved a life that day, then it was all worth it. And I think about it, at any moment you have the ability to do that. conversely, at any moment have the ability to knock someone down.

And so really thinking about expansive pedagogies and your conversation about biases with your students is so important because teachers make a huge impact. You, everybody can remember the teacher that they hated. They also remember the teacher that they loved and the teacher that they hated. Like they will give you specific reasons.

This person did things that were so impactful that it sticks with you through adulthood. I also remember the moment that, [00:36:00] you know, the person that I idolized, I realized in retrospect was not a good influence on me, right? because the person was highly religious and I was queer. And so there was a lot of tapping down of things that I just didn't realize at the time.

And so teachers make a huge impact. And you're absolutely correct. If I saved a life that day, then it's all worth it. And you have that choice every day. 

Danelle (they/them): Exactly. Because that one moment can be the choice between life or death. That one moment can change their whole trajectory. And imagine if we put a whole bunch of moments together, what that will create.

Bryan (he/they): Yes, and I think about, like, you know, some folks will tell me that I'm being melodramatic when I say something like that. That it's a life or death situation, except for when you look at the statistics, like, Queer kids are dying. Queer kids are dying. And if you have the ability to be the person, [00:37:00] you don't know what's going on in their brain.

If you have the ability to be the person that can help them, do it. Because all it takes is one person to save their life. And then the more that they feel comfortable with the one person, the more they get away from suicidal ideation into maybe like just having low self esteem and then later like moving their way out of that dark place.

Because I think about the student in Oklahoma, who they were literally bullied to death. And when they were asked, Well, how come you didn't tell a teacher? How come you didn't tell somebody?

Danelle (they/them): How come you didn't speak up? And they shared because nobody would believe me.

Bryan (he/they): And I think That whole scenario, 

Danelle (they/them): that whole outcome could be different. 

Bryan (he/they): Absolutely. And that, that's one of the most infuriating things that have happened in the last two years. In my opinion, especially thinking about how the, Department of Education in Oklahoma has like doubled down on it, [00:38:00] doubled down on trans people not being allowed in schools.

And I was like, this child died. This child, and whether or not the child died of suicide versus the beating that actually happened, it's all the same thing. One thing led to the other, and that child is dead. And that is not okay. Because no child should die. None. It doesn't matter who they are.

No child deserves to die just for being who they are. 

Danelle (they/them): Like if the way that this country and educational system treats children doesn't radicalize you, I don't know what will. 

Bryan (he/they): I want to thank you so much for this conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I am so intrigued by your research field.

I'm gonna go look up your dissertation later. I think more queer joy, more black joy, more joy for everyone. And I just want to thank you so much for reminding us all of that. 

Danelle (they/them): Yes. Thank you for having me. I definitely have enjoyed [00:39:00] sharing this moment and sharing a space with you.

And I am looking forward to more.