76. How Representation of Out Queer Educators Positively Impacts Queer Students in Schools

What’s it  like to navigate a career as a queer educator in a field where traditional norms often overshadow diverse identities?

In this episode, Dr. Mel Adams (she/her) shares her profound journey of embracing and integrating her queer identity into her role as a college professor. Whether you're an educator, student, or simply someone interested in LGBTQ+ issues, Mel’s story highlights the complexities and triumphs of living authentically in a professional setting.

Through our conversation you will:

• Discover strategies to navigate the challenges of being an out queer educator,
• Learn valuable approaches for addressing anti-queer behavior.
• Gain insights into the evolving understanding of queer identities and the importance of representation in academia and beyond.

Tune in now to hear Dr. Mel Adams’ inspiring story and valuable advice on how authenticity and representation can transform educational environments.

Transcript

Bryan (he/they): [00:00:00] Hi, Mel. How are you doing today? 

Mel (she/her): I am really well. Thanks for asking, Bryan. 

Bryan (he/they): Oh, that's awesome. I'm glad to hear it. Can you share with our listeners a little bit more about yourself? 

Mel (she/her): Sure. My name is Dr. Mel Adams. I identify as lesbian and gender non binary, and I'm a college professor at Keene State College in New Hampshire.

Bryan (he/they): That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. So let's talk a little bit about your experience growing up. What was life like for you as a queer educator? 

Mel (she/her): I'm older, so I have a really long background in that has changed over time about how I see my queerness and bring my queerness to work.

And previously, as a student, I was not out. I wasn't even that aware of who I was. I think, especially in high school, I was trying so hard to fit in that I didn't understand why I didn't fit in, and I didn't focus on that until I was in graduate school, where I actually realized, I was like, [00:01:00] okay, this is what this is.

I'm a lesbian, and this is what that means, and how I'm going to move through the world. So I think how I bring my background to the classroom is to recognize that there are students sitting there before me that don't know yet, or maybe questioning and maybe trying to push that aside, or that there are students that need to be affirmed that do know and they need that role model.

So I think my ability to be out in front of my students allows all of those people that space and time to either figure out who they are or to recognize that who they are is perfectly fine and wonderful or just to give space to that, like that's a possibility in people's lives. 

Bryan (he/they): Absolutely. I think about my own educational experience and how there was such a huge lack of representation.

I had my first queer, teacher when I was in college, that I know of because everything was so hidden and quiet at the [00:02:00] time. And so I think that, What you're talking about probably resonates with a lot of people. The not quite sure what's, who I am. Also, not really in a space to explore it.

Also, there was really no kind of way to talk about it. Until you became an adult. 

Mel (she/her): Yeah, it definitely wasn't. I can look back now and, identify. particularly the lesbian teachers that I had, professors that, and people who knew and made, comments or, just the gossip that was about.

And I didn't identify with that wasn't my persona at the time. I was just like I don't know that I'm like everybody else, but I don't think I'm like this either. And I don't know what that is. Yeah, I think that the 80s and 90s were really a very kind of closed space where, if you didn't fit one particular model of being queer, that was all that there was, like I [00:03:00] must not be, and I think I had this conversation with myself, I must not be a lesbian because I don't look like, I don't act like all the lesbians that I know.

So therefore, I'm probably straight. I just like sports a lot and I just like, short hair and it didn't Resonate with me until I was much older that there's so many ways to be queer and that there is not one way like there's not one way to be straight. There's not one way to be queer 

Bryan (he/they): Absolutely.

I think about that a lot especially because of the growing language, especially as I get older There's new terms and things coming out and a lot of people Can get frustrated by that? Like we're constantly labeling new things but the thing is it's more like we're finding the words that fit what people are feeling and I think that's beautiful.

Mel (she/her): Right and you know it's had there been words like non binary when I was younger. I don't know, maybe that would have been the identity I would have moved towards. I didn't have that. not, I'm, I don't claim a [00:04:00] trans identity because I don't feel particularly gender dysphoric. I accept myself as who I am.

But who I am is very, I believe my gender presentation is unique to me. And that's, you can't put a single label on that. Much like people's personalities. Like you can't singly label somebody as introverted or extroverted. Like we have tendencies for those things.

Absolutely. So it's just, it's nuanced. And I guess. Humans work towards the easiest mental solution possible, and so binaries are like, you're in this box or that box, or you're in this thing or that thing, and we like the labels, and we sometimes forget that, humans can't be labeled.

We're just not that simple. 

Bryan (he/they): I think that what's interesting for me is that, working in theater, because that is, I'm a theater educator, and a theater maker, we, Do a lot of improv and the first rule of improv is yes and I wonder if [00:05:00] Because we're breaking a binary by teaching people like Yes, and this yes And that you're you are claiming yes to this statement that someone has said to you and then also you're adding to it And I think that idea It's not yes, and then no It's yes, and I'm adding to it.

And I think that might have a little bit to do with maybe the welcoming environment for kind of this more fluidity feel to gender expression or even sexuality. It seems to be the space, the safe space for a lot of people. And I wonder if it comes down to that kind of that binary shift, we're not focused on this or that we're focused on this.

And. all the other options that are available. And that just popped into my head when you were talking, so I'm just spewing out information at this point, folks. Let's talk a little bit about anti queer behavior. What are some things that you do when you're confronted with anti queer behavior? 

Mel (she/her): [00:06:00] I think I have two personas in this, two, two avenues, and one is when it's in front of students, when it's public, in a way, I'm more curious and I ask things, what do you mean by that?

Or how are you seeing that? Or is that really how you meant for that to come out? And I take a much more like educator tone of let's explore this then when things happen personally I'm a little bit more oh that's a conversation I don't want to have and I'm walking away. I think some of that I've rationalized in my head of when I'm working with other faculty members or administrators and they Say things that are unwelcoming or un affirming.

I have this view of you're too old for me to try to change . This is too embedded. whereas the college students, the younger folks, I feel like you're still growing to understand this. you may have some developed beliefs based [00:07:00] on who your family is and where you've come from, but the world is wide open.

So I tend to, and maybe that's just making it sound nice for I don't want to have those confrontations with my peers. Whereas I always see myself in front of students as educating. very rarely, is it a student that has some anti queer behavior or message for me because they know my identity.

And even, I think I have enough, social capital with people that they don't want to say something that would offend me. whether or not they fully embrace who I am, there's a sense of I don't want to hurt their feelings. I wouldn't want to intentionally do something. So I'm going to hold back from making that statement.

And that's where college is right now. It's a very interesting place of, where students are self editing and censoring themselves and what is okay to have going on in a classroom and what's not. So it's very rarely that I have anti queer things from [00:08:00] students. I interact with a number of different faculty members who, whether they mean them to be or they are intentional, is they say some things that just catch me as whoa, where did that come from?

And I just, for the most part, my strategy there is to be like, that's about you. That's not about me. And I'm gonna go on and do what I need to do because your opinion about this. I'm not going to change. 

Bryan (he/they): Yep. I can agree with that. 100%. I used to be an avid and that used to be was like a week ago, even, an avid, combatter in the comments, especially when it came to this podcast and I've since just turned them off.

And I was thinking to myself when I was turning them off, This isn't me allowing people to win a conversation, so much as me saying that you don't have a right to speak in my space. And it really is about choosing those battles because, you can go up against a bunch [00:09:00] of people who are never going to change your mind, or you can live your life and be a slightly happier.

And that's where I get, I wish that some of my students had that mindset of, Some things we just let go for our own mental health. Versus holding on to them and like really stressing ourselves out about this thing that happened. And I hope that younger people can learn that kind of coping mechanism.

Because I just see so many people with anxiety who are constantly angry or upset about something. And I'm like, I just want you to breathe. Really think about whose opinion is important? Is that person's opinion important? If it's not important, let it go. You really need to focus on the people who matter the most as opposed to giving everybody the opportunity to say something that might offend you.

Mel (she/her): The more they open the door, the more the pushback comes. and it's also, it's exhausting. I know I have colleagues who've [00:10:00] left. the, diversity inclusion world, because it's just this constant battle. All the time we get a battle and it's it wears on you.

It's not your job to educate everyone. It's not your job to police everyone's language. Not your job to, change everyone's view. we don't have time for that. We don't have the emotional space for that. And it's okay, that if not everybody likes you for exactly who you are, that's okay.

I think that's a huge, maturing point of recognizing that I don't have to be liked. I don't necessarily even have to be respected to still be okay. As long as I have the people in my circle that I know I always have that home base with It's okay, 

Bryan (he/they): and I remind myself like I don't like everybody else there are people in this world.

I don't like so Why would I expect everybody [00:11:00] in this world to like me and I think once I gained that perspective It made it a lot easier to let opinions just fall to the ground and walk away from them 

So thinking about the educational, community, and you were talking about, having some issues with faculty, if you were, approached by someone who is in our community, who's concerned about showing up authentically at work, what kind of advice would you give them?

Mel (she/her): I have a huge privilege in being able to be out, and I didn't expend my whole career being out I definitely evolved to this. We also, after I got my PhD, specifically looked for more affirming places to live. So I'm in a place that, even before, the national marriage, recognized my partner I purposely put myself in a place so that I could be out.

And, not everybody has that privilege, that opportunity, that ability to, make their life work that way. And so I [00:12:00] first, I would say, be sure that you are safe, that your, career will not be jeopardized by being out. And on the positive side is when you stop hiding the energy that can go to your work.

My ability to relate to people, my productivity, just my sense of ease at work, I became a much better teacher. I was a much better faculty member because I could be myself and I didn't have to do that kind of micro coding of all my language and Make sure that people didn't know that I had a wife it was exhausting.

It was absolutely exhausting. So people just want to make conversations. So what'd you do this weekend? And I'd have to be we did this and we did that and never divulged the identity of my partner. it felt fake and it was a charade to have to keep up.

And [00:13:00] now, I talk about my family, my, my wife, and when we had a dog pictures of the dog go up on, my classroom presentations, it's this is me, this is who I am. And it's just easier to get that out of the way. And then, I don't have to, my, most of my students know the name of my wife.

Most, they, they ask, so how's And, it's just part of the same conversations that they have with any other faculty member who is straight and cis and they just talk about their wife, husband, kids, all of that. It just comes to work naturally because I'm here naturally. It's a huge privilege and not everybody is going to have the place where they can do that.

So I would definitely say, if you can't set yourself up in a place that is that, be sure that you're comfortable there. And it might be a dipping of the toe of who is a safe person [00:14:00] around me? Maybe there are going to be safe people in your workplace and people who are not so safe in your workplace.

particularly our peers in the South, I think they feel a much harder road to, exist. 

Bryan (he/they): Yeah. It's wild. Cause I was in the South for a while when I started this podcast. In fact, I started it because of some situations that happened in Texas.

And the thing for me was like, I was out because my children go to the school and I can't force my children to lie about who their parents are. I think that's inappropriate. And I told my principal that when he was like, you should go back in the closet. But inadvertently in the back of my mind, I had made some changes to how I communicate because of that conversation with my principal.

And you're a hundred percent correct. That first year when I was doing all of this, like code switching, I was so uncomfortable. and exhausted mentally that [00:15:00] even though, we were doing a ton of things and my program was very active. I felt like it could have been so much better. And once I realized that the thing was, I just stopped talking about my family.

So it wasn't even what did you do on the weekends? I would be like I did this. And I just, removed any question of family with the exception of when we were directly talking about my children who, go to the school and my students know them, because I have, 600 eyes, and so when things happen, with my kids, my students are the first ones to tell me, and so it was like I had little spies, but, my husband would help with sets and whatnot, and he became the other Mr.

Stanton. Then they would just call him the other Mr. Stanton hi other Mr. Stanton. Because it's the South, and they're trying to be respectful and so it's a whole lot of yes, ma'am, yes, sir, and that doesn't feel right with me, so I'm just Just call me Mr. Stanton, it'd be good.

[00:16:00] But it was so freeing when I had this kind of moment of realization that I had absentmindedly been hiding. And as we look at the educational community on a whole, what are some things that you can do, what, excuse me, what are some things that the education community can do to be more inclusive of queer people?

Mel (she/her): I think one of the big, mental shifts that needs to happen is to recognize that queer people have always been teaching. This, recent surge of legislation around teaching, and it's they think they're reacting to a new problem. And the problem was never a problem, and it has always been there.

There have always been gay, lesbian, non binary, trans people teaching. Whether the straight folks knew it or not, they were always here. And so there doesn't need to be this huge push of, we got to do things different because it's [00:17:00] new. no, you just need to recognize that people are people and this is part of who people can be.

We need to let our students be the people they are. We need to let everyone who teaches be the people they are because, quite honestly, We're facing a teacher shortage, even at the faculty level at the college level people are thinking Do I really want to do that? Do I want to spend 20, 15, 20, 30 years Having other people tell me what's okay or not.

Okay for me to talk about Do I want to spend that time, battling with parents? And it is, It's different. And I don't think that for education to survive or even improve, we could start cutting folks out and just be an unwelcoming place. So first off, acknowledge that Queer folks have always been here, and that we need the queer folks.

We need diversity of [00:18:00] thought, we need diversity of background, and we need people to be able to show up as they are, because that's when they're going to be their best self. If you want to add to a teacher's stress of all the stressful things they're already dealing with, let's add to it like, okay, and now you have to, be closeted, and you need to represent, somebody you're not, and you need to do things that don't feel like yourself and guard your language and your personal life very, tightly.

Okay, on top of the tremendous amount of work, the hours in the day that you're dealing with students, the constant decision making, all of those things that we know are challenging in teaching. Let's add A huge amount of stress on top of, and don't be out, and don't in any way give anybody the thought that you're different.

Bryan (he/they): Honestly, I think about the fact of things that I've done in the past to just keep myself safe, [00:19:00] and it's mind boggling that I was able to do all of those things, because it really is so much. You have to reprogram your brain When you're closeted you have to reprogram your brain up to be like this is me for me And then this is me for everybody else and you can't let me for me out ever And that is just it is Heartbreaking, but it's also a lot.

It's so much pressure and so much stress 

Mel (she/her): And there's so many pieces of yourself that You chip away at to be what other folks will accept. And I think that's where like the biggest shift for me. I went back to college late, to get my PhD a little bit later and I had been closeted and I was working in colleges teaching.

I was a certified athletic trainer. So I was working with sports teams and coaches. And when I went to get my PhD, I was like, okay, this is it. I am not going to be [00:20:00] closeted anymore. I'm doing this as me. And what I've learned over those 15 years or so is there are so many things that I thought were me when I was closeted that I now know are not me.

And I would never have been able to piece those things apart if I had to continue to be hiding. And working away, chipping away at who really Mel is, Versus who was the male that was socially representative? Who was the male that was, acceptable, right? Those are two different people.

And I think what has been shocking, I got hired here and I presented in one way, not necessarily super feminine, and I was up front, about having a wife from the interviews on, but I shortened my hair about five years ago. And that was like, a pretty big shock for many of my colleagues. They were just whoa, okay, that is we're not pretending anymore.

We're not [00:21:00] coding this. This isn't, and it's no, this isn't, this is me. This is how I feel like myself. And occasionally I wear a bow tie and this is me and it's a switch for them. And I got more comments about the hair and the masculine clothing than I did about anything else. It's fine that I talked about my wife in class.

It was all the same, but as soon as the physical representation shifted, there was a little okay, that's in our face. We can't ignore that. 

Bryan (he/they): I think I was thinking about what you were saying about, learning that there were parts of you that you thought were male, but they actually weren't male.

And, I think back to my childhood, I was very outgoing and whatnot. And, I'm still a pretty outgoing person, but I also understand that I need a balance of sitting in silence. Or doing something that's just for myself. And, recently I was at my brother's wedding in a space [00:22:00] that was 100 percent straight people and then me because my family, my husband, we couldn't afford to go.

It was a destination wedding. And my mom was like, wow, you're being really quiet. And that being like outgoing was like a part of my acceptability standpoint. When I was in the closet and I talked to my other brother later on in the day, just going. Mom won't understand this, but why would I be outgoing?

I'm the one queer person in a house full of straight people where I only know three people or four people who are my immediate family and I don't know anybody else. And on top of all that, my brother that got married and his wife are, Trump supporters. And so it's I'm in this awkward space.

And I'm pretty good at masking from time to time, but I just it was a lot. We were like [00:23:00] trapped in this house because it was a destination wedding and I was like, I'm gonna go sit in this hammock for a while and just be with myself because all this is a lot. And so that was just like a small reminder of what life was like to be like dampened down.

And it's not like I wasn't myself while I was there. I made some pretty obnoxious queer jokes on purpose, Because I was like, you know what? I'm here and you're supposedly a part of my family now So you're gonna have to get used to this. But It was a good reminder to me of just like how exhausting Having to well how exhausting being uncomfortable is 

Mel (she/her): Yeah.

and trying to make yourself comfortable with being uncomfortable Like and accepting like this low level of anxiety as normal 

Bryan (he/they): all the time 

Mel (she/her): You know, this constant, I didn't realize that people didn't have a thought in their head all day. It was like, do they [00:24:00] know? Do they know?

Do they know? I'm, that, that whole thing is gone now. So it's beautiful. It's wonderful to grow into this space where, we are more affirmed. We have more rights. We're more open. There's more accepting people than I ever, as a high school student, I could never have imagined being able to get married.

So many more things have happened in my lifetime than I ever thought would happen. There still is so much kind of fear that just is mystifying to me. Why is it hard for teachers to use students pronouns or chosen names? To me, I don't if any student says, my name is Blue, okay, your name's Blue.

I'm gonna call you Blue. That's, How hard is that? And yet we have, laws here that are saying if a child wants to be called by a different name, you have to tell the parent. It's like, 

Bryan (he/they): why? Honestly, and I think of how many Texas football. [00:25:00] I think of how many Bubba's I've seen out on the field.

I had a student called Cinco because he was the fifth, his full name, the fifth, and so they just called him Cinco and I'm like, What you don't get is a nickname as a chosen name and While a trans or non binary student is saying this is who I actually am, so is the person saying this nickname.

I feel more comfortable using this name. I feel better about myself. It's more who I am to say this. My uncle, his name is Flynn and he goes by Butch. And it's he's more comfortable as a Butch. And that's fine. And if it's fine for him, why isn't it fine for everybody else? Dang it. 

Mel (she/her): Matt is a nickname of Matthew.

Are we going to go back to you have to be addressed by your full name? They'll be all Christopher's, Matthew's You know? No. And here's what I have to [00:26:00] say about that also, nothing of that 

Bryan (he/they): is some of these white teachers are gonna have to learn to say their names of their students then, because a lot of people give nicknames to people because they just can't pronounce their names, which is rude.

But, it's a reality that I've had students come up to me and they're just like, call me. Easier name in Spanish. And I was like, no, that's not your name. What do you want? What do you want me to actually call you? Would you like me to call you your name? Do you want me to call you this nickname or are you just trying to make it easier because I have white skin?

Because they've dealt with so many teachers who are like, Oh, that's just too hard for me to pronounce. So I'm going to call you Ricky instead or whatever. And that bothers me so much that if we really want to, If you really want to play this game, then you need to be respectful of people from other cultures, and you need to learn their dang names.

Mel (she/her): Yeah, and recognize the internalized homophobia or internalized, racism [00:27:00] that happens for that person when, somebody can't validate who you are with as simple as the name that you're asking to be called. That just says, hey, I'm not important enough. That who I am is so different that I am not important enough as everybody else to have my name used appropriately or spoken appropriately.

I am, that's probably one of those, teaching fears I have is mispronouncing students names. And I am not great phonically. And I really have to work at learning names. And it's worth the effort, though. You have to do this. If you're going to, validate and make your classroom a place where people can be their best, you have to validate who they are.

And maybe the kid on the football team doesn't want to be called Bubba, but can't stand up to all the dozens of people who are calling them Bubba. And in your class, they want to be known as Jim. Okay, then that's what I'm gonna do. know, people look at it as oh, you're going [00:28:00] against the norm, or the average, or the typical, and it's I'm just trying to treat people as who they are, going with like the set rules that are working for most people does not actually Treat people and differentiate people based on who they are.

It just makes it easier for people who aren't identifiably different. 

Bryan (he/they): Yeah. That's the thing that I find so fascinating is that people think that this, like what we do and being visible and the work that we're doing is really just about queer kids. It's not just about queer kids. It's about all kids and making sure that all kids are comfortable and safe in our classrooms.

And it just so happens that. We're also queer, so we're saying, I have this connection with these types of students. But the thing for me is that heterosexual teachers had that connection without having to say it. And so many people don't realize that heterosexuality is rampant in [00:29:00] schools.

Everything is taught in a binary. Their relationships in books are always male female. The stories that we're reading about are always about heterosexual people. and that includes the history, right? And so all this heterosexualism is there, present, but because people can't recognize the privilege of that, they don't see that it's even present.

They're just like that's just how it was. Yes, that's how it was. And we're trying to say, it can't stay that way. 

Mel (she/her): And it really wasn't how it was. It was what was documented. 

Bryan (he/they): That's fair. And 

Mel (she/her): who was doing the documenting? I 

Bryan (he/they): agree with that. Hundred percent. He was writing the story. 

Mel (she/her): Who was it? It may not actually, I mean there's all kinds of interesting, history looking back at like little women and pulling out queer characters, where before there was no mention of that when I was in high school.

That was just little women, it's [00:30:00] always been there. I think that's what I find our queer history so fascinating is we have always been there. And in some places we have been in very prominent positions and people just didn't know. 

Bryan (he/they): But that doesn't 

Mel (she/her): erase the fact that we were there.

Bryan (he/they): It does not. And it's frustrating for me. And we have this big uproar, this is being recorded just after the opening ceremony of the Olympics. And. There was this big uproar about, drag queens in The Last Supper, and the conservative community just didn't realize that, they were paying homage to Greek culture, which is, pantheistic and, or polytheistic, and they've got a lot of artwork that was then later appropriated by, Christianity.

And so there's this huge uproar, but Really, it's just a matter of knowing your history, because if you look at Greeks, if you look at Norse, if you look at even, some Asian pantheons, there are gender [00:31:00] fluid people, there are people who have, changed genders to be with different partners, there are people who are pansexual, I think of Apollo, and Apollo, was, Notoriously a ladies man, but also had a deep relationship with Hyacinth.

it's frustrating to me for people to be like, this is also brand new when like literally these religions from centuries and centuries ago documented that it existed. It's right there in their stories.

Mel (she/her): Yeah, it's been nuanced out because the straight person or the homophobic person couldn't understand it, didn't get it, and so it got removed, and now we have nothing but, cisgender heteronormativity as The norm and it's like it's the difference between The word typical and normal is something [00:32:00] I like to help students differentiate with is like Typical is what's happening and I teach a lot of research and statistics stuff.

So typical is what is most likely It's the center of the curve, right? It's the highest probability that this thing is gonna happen whereas norm Doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. And once folks, and I think even for me, once I realized that being queer was not typical and can still be normal, I was like, this is a gift.

Whereas in my early sort of 20s and 30s, I was, I probably was the biggest overachiever because of I'm going to make up for being a lesbian by being awesome at everything and I'm going to be great at it. And if I'm super good at my career, then nobody's going to ask questions about my personal life.

And so it was this hidden thing that I felt like I needed to make [00:33:00] up for. Be a better person. Be a better, professional. Do all these things. Be the best teacher ever. Whereas now I look at being queer as. This is my gift. This is my superpower. This is not something I have to make up for.

This is not something that I have to offset with other talents. This is something that I was chosen to do. Not everybody wins the lottery of being queer. You have this, and this happened. This is who you are. And now you get to see it as a blessing instead of a, Oh gosh good enough, even though I'm queer.

and when that mental shift happens, that is a great place to be able to be an adult in and be like, this is what I get to do. Like I can't say enough how much privilege I have to live where I live and work at the school that I do. Some of my research is around gender identity and physical activity.

[00:34:00] I run a camp for queer kids on campus and I have never had anybody say I don't know if we ought to be supporting that or we should do that. I have incredible privilege to be able to do the stuff that I do. And I do it because I know that there's somebody, some kid in middle school, high school, or college that needs to see that a queer person can be successful.

That a queer person can be fun, can be normal, can be whatever this term is that's got them hung up. 

Bryan (he/they): Absolutely. I think that was incredibly worthwhile, and I think that people should probably go back to listen to that section just again. We've been ending our episodes with an Ask a Queer Educator question.

Today's question comes from Jen, and Jen asks, What's one thing you wish you knew before entering the education field? 

Mel (she/her): So college and public school teaching a little bit [00:35:00] different. The one thing that I probably didn't understand well enough when I got into being a college professor is that the move of education towards a business.

And so the business of higher ed is very hard. It's very, to have to talk about students as students. to have to look at things like efficiencies, like how can we streamline this? What are, all these corporate buzzwords have come into, to my realm in this way that I, as a college student and I think, being a college student was the first place that I felt like, wow, this is the place for me. Like I loved learning things. I loved all the different people I was meeting. And I, in that, Since that put me where on the road to becoming a college professor because I thought that was just an incredibly important time in my life, when I shifted to this person who like could be [00:36:00] dorky and geeky and enjoy like really deep learning of things.

And so I didn't think about The tuition ultimately pays for the grounds and the dorms and the faculty salaries and all the other administrators who have to do the things that they have to do to make this all run. I was just thinking, oh, I'm going to go and be impactful to young people. and now I, come to understand the business side of it and it nuts and bolts a little bit better of yes, we are impactful and we better be impactful to a certain number of people.

Otherwise, then we have to start shrinking what we do so that we fit the income that we can bring in and I didn't understand that at first. And now that I do, I occasionally rail against it in that, if we're going to treat, we can't treat. Students like consumers because the customer is not always right.

You can't just be like I don't want to tick off [00:37:00] my full plant paying student here. So I'm going to make sure that they get a decent grade so that they keep going, even though they didn't really do the work. And so it's a weird dichotomy when you're hearing all the corporate language.

And then, like the buck has to stop at some point. This has to be that the student makes their education happen. They're not just buying it. 

Bryan (he/they): There is no teaching without students and there is no student without teacher. You know what I mean?

Like it is I think of my classroom space as a space where we are all growing and we're teaching and we're learning together because I learn plenty of things from my students and so I Agree with you that's I see that trickling down into public school education, even though The taxes people pay are so freaking minimal to what actually impacts an individual [00:38:00] teacher, but I've definitely heard that, like we pay our taxes, we pay your salary, which is absolutely not true, but it's, that consumer mentality really is getting everywhere, which is why it's so frightening to me when There are lawmakers who are like, we should have voucher programs and we should have choice programs where basically it's consumerizing public education.

Mel (she/her): Yeah. We're facing that a lot here where I live too, this, school choice idea. And, New Hampshire already is small population wise, and we have these towns that are very small and they're having to, they're losing their local school because they can't. Get the numbers because students are leaving and so they're having to make agreements with other towns and it just becomes so hard to provide quality with such a diluted tax base or a diluted funding base.

And it's interesting to talk to Folks about the [00:39:00] taxes like tax in New Hampshire, live free or die is not exactly what the motto We are taxed It's just on a local level and it is pretty extreme and I don't have kids who are in the public schools I have no children and I'm funding a lot of that And so folks will say to me like if I were to move to one town over My tax bill would be about a third less.

And they're like why don't you do that? You don't have kids in school. You don't need to be in the school district. And I'm like, I want a literate, citizenry around me. I want people to be well educated. And if that's the cost, then that's the cost. Sometimes when I get that big bill, I'm a little like, why do we do this?

And, because I see students in college and some students had a really great. Educational background and experience and they come in super prepared and some students don't. It's I want to be [00:40:00] part of the town that has the students that are prepared. 

Bryan (he/they): Yeah, absolutely. I think that's, it's wild to me just how many people are willing to be like, I don't have kids so I don't really care about this.

I shouldn't be taxed for this. And I'm like, I care about how society is going to be because this is what, makes our society. And I think that a lot of that also is politicized in the sense that like, why should you care about it? Public schools are just so bad, and all this, but really public schools aren't that bad.

It's the funding going to public schools. That's bad because people are cutting it here and there and everywhere. Hey Mel, I just want to thank you again for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate your time spending your morning with me, and I so appreciate our conversation today. 

Mel (she/her): Yeah, it's been fun.